Large Bali or Lombok keris for comment

[JeffS]

I purchased this large keris from Artzi, not yet arrived. The gerantiman hilt with grip checkering and long 52cm heavy blade seems to be intended for saber grip providing some slashing capacity despite the blumbangan. As with my other Balinese keris, the hollow edge stops short of the tip, leaving it thicker. I've seen it suggested that is reinforcement for piercing, though I am skeptical. It appears pamorless which I understand would be unusual in a Balinese keris. I'm not sure about Lombok. The sale page indicates early 20C but I wonder if it might be a bit older. What dhapur is it? Any comments and observations would be very welcome. Photos are from the seller.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo JeffS!

To me, it's a Manjeuseup Leres (sunbird, straight blade), following a pakem that goes back to at least 15thC.
This may be of interest:
- if the blade length >42cm., it's a sandang walikat (worn over the shoulderblade)
- if the diameter of the tang base >0.72cm., it's a tjorok (doubles as emergency sword)

Best,

[Gustav]

A beautiful, well made blade. As Amuk pointed out, it follows an archaic form.
You had luck noticing (or being noticed about it) early, that was a good catch.

[JeffS]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo JeffS!
To me, it's a Manjeuseup Leres (sunbird, straight blade), following a pakem that goes back to at least 15thC.
This may be of interest:
- if the blade length >42cm., it's a sandang walikat (worn over the shoulderblade)
- if the diameter of the tang base >0.72cm., it's a tjorok (doubles as emergency sword)

Originally Posted by Gustav

A beautiful, well made blade. As Amuk pointed out, it follows an archaic form.
You had luck noticing (or being noticed about it) early, that was a good catch.

Thank you for the information. I am always grateful of the depth of knowlege so freely shared here. It is a lot of fun to post pieces and to see what fascinating history, hidden details, and even controversy that may arise. I suppose when asking the name of dhapur I'm really hoping to learn if it is a recognized and interesting dhapur. An archaic lineage to 15thC or more certainly qualifies. Definitely a shoulder blade, I will measure the pesi base when it arrives. I would be interested to understand if there are specific features that signal the pakem or if it is more how the ensemble of features come together. Absence of sekar kakang and related bits as well as absent sogokan emphasizes the prominent tikel alis and whatever the groove above the gandik outside of the tikel alis is called. As someone who loves sunbirds, I wonder how they came to be included in the dhapur name. Also, is there a clear indication if Balinese or from Lombok? I suppose the question of pamor or lack thereof will have to wait until I have it in hand.

[Rick]

Interesting little depression on the handle; for the thumb perhaps?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...1&d=1681983470

[David]

Hi Jeff. Nice Bali keris. I like it! Could it be Lombok? Sure. But with a keris like this i am not sure if we can ever really be sure and i think it could just as likely be Bali as well. Lombok was under Balinese control for some time and i believe it is often difficult to tell if a keris blade was actually made in one place or another. Sometimes dress might be a clue, but then it is only a clue as to where the blade ended up, not necessarily where it originated. I don't see anything that dictates this sheath is specifically Lombok rather than Balinese. This is a variation of cenangan hilt that has these finger grooves in them and i believe i have seen examples similar to this that have been identified as Lombok.
While i am not aware of the name that Amuk Murugal has given for this dhapur anything is possible. As you probably know, names can be very localized things and vary from place to place.
Pakem is a Javanese word and i am not aware of there being a Balinese Pakem for the dhapur of Balinese blades from the specific kingdoms. Are there written pakem from Bali. If there are perhaps Amuk can point us to where they can be found.
I have no idea what Amuk means by the following:if the blade length >42cm., it's a sandang walikat (worn over the shoulderblade) since "sandang walikat" is a form of sheath (not the kind yours is) and has nothing to do with the length or type of blade.
I am likewise confused by his use of the word " tjorok" and what he means by an "emergency sword". In searches i have seen to word attached to a few of keris for sale online, but they have all been Javanese keris so i don't know if this is a Javanese word or not or what the diameter of the pesi has to do with this designation. Perhaps Amuk can enlighten us.
I do have another Bali keris that is pamorless like yours (Rick, you may recognize this old friend ). While the dhapur is somewhat different (unlike yours mine has sogokan, kembang kacang pogok and lambe gajah) this keris does have the same over all profile along the length of the blade that bellies out slightly in the middle and it has a similar termination at the tip.
I could be wrong, but i suspect that pamorless blades like this may well have been produced more specifically as a fighting blade rather than for status.
Please forgive the low quality quick cellphone photos.

[kai]

Interesting little depression on the handle; for the thumb perhaps?

I don't think so, Rick: While the edges are worn smooth, the surface of that depression is not really smooth. Thus, this looks like an damage to me that happened during the active life of this keris.

Having said this, I'd estimate the fittings to be from the 20th century; the crosspiece might be a tad older than the rest.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Jeff,

Considering that this is an old Jawa dhapur, I'd posit it's very likely Balinese craftsmanship. It might be crafted on Bali or in the Balinese colonies on Lombok - culturally that would not make any difference.

Keris that we consider specifically originating from Lombok (rather than Bali) are usually keris which appear to be influenced by Balinese style (or Jawa or Bugis) but deviate from the originating culture enough to suspect another (or mixed/fusion) origin. Quite often these exhibit fancy features that pretty much result in them being out of pakem from a traditionalist perspective...

Regards,
Kai

[JeffS]

Originally Posted by kai

I don't think so, Rick: While the edges are worn smooth, the surface of that depression is not really smooth. Thus, this looks like an damage to me that happened during the active life of this keris.

Agreed it appears rough and unfinished. However, being located inline with the blumbangan and the orientation (thumb would be aligned with blade), as well as the thumb-like size and shape, make me wonder if this was a later modification to allow a similar grip as when choked up on the blade (to support thrusting). I am curious how this grip would feel while holding the keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

In respect of names.

The names for keris that have the same characteristics can & do change from place to place, similarly, the names for the features themselves change from place to place.

If we are going to try to classify any keris in the language of its place of origin, then we do need to use the language of that place of origin, and the parameters for classification that apply in the place of origin, and at the specific time period that we might choose. If we do not do this, then we might just as well use English or any other language.

Amuk has mentioned a dhapur that he believes could be applied to this keris, but is that dhapur a Balinese designation? I rather doubt that it is.

Similarly, as David has pointed out, the term "sandang walikat" is Javanese and applies to the name of a scabbard type. In Bali "sandang walikat" is unknown, the equivalent scabbard style is the "Kajongan", however, the correct term in Bali for any keris worn at the back, and drawn from over the shoulder is "Nyungklit".

Balinese society is structured in a different fashion to Javanese society, and different paradigms apply.

The naming of keris dhapurs in Bali is much more relaxed than in Jawa, and nowhere near the same extent of dhapur names are on offer to be used. I have yet to find any authoritative source that lists dhapur names & characteristics for Balinese keris, as we do have for Javanese keris. In fact, I doubt that any over-arching pakem can be applied to Balinese keris, my doubts in this respect rest upon the nature of Balinese society prior to the turn of the 19th century.

With Javanese keris my personal preference is to use the Surakarta Karaton parameters, principally because my education has been mostly within this sphere, but also because it is, I believe, the last pakem issued under royal authority & at the end of the Colonial Era.

But there are a number of other Javanese pakems, and I guess that any one of these is acceptable to use provided that the source is cited.

The same situation does not apply in Bali. In fact, not even a similar situation applies in Bali. Much of the old keris knowledge was lost, gone & forgotten following the puputans.

Since about 1998, or around the time of the GFC, some culturally orientated people in Bali have been trying very hard to revitalise keris culture, but regrettably they have very little work with, other than present day perceptions, the opinions of some keris interested people from cultures other than Balinese, and more than a little bit of pure invention. Still, this is perhaps better than nothing, it is a new society in Bali now, if compared to what it was a hundred & more years ago, and the belief systems have changed to reflect that new society.

But all that aside, Jeff's keris is in Javanese terms a Tilam Upih with greneng & rondha nunut. Kai tells us it is a Javanese dhapur, it might be, it sure looks like a Javanese dhapur, but I do not know the name for this Javanese dhapur.

There are a few Javanese candidates, FX, Tilam Sari for one, but none of these candidates has full greneng & ron dha nunut.

But it is not a Javanese keris, it is Balinese, and as a Balinese keris it is not listed in the few references on Balinese keris that I currently have available.

The blade without pamor can have various explanations. In respect of Javanese keris my understanding is that such a blade might have been made for:-

1) use as a weapon

2) use as an item of dress, ie, purely to hold the dress together

3) because the person who ordered it could not afford pamor

4) because of some personal esoteric belief

all these reasons could just as easily be applied to any keris, but a keris without pamor is very unlikely to have been made as a family pusaka.

In any case, in my opinion this is very nice keris, the dress could perhaps do with a bit of a facelift, but this would very much depend upon the access to a m'ranggi with appropriate skills, not the easiest sort of person to find these days.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by kai

I don't think so, Rick: While the edges are worn smooth, the surface of that depression is not really smooth. Thus, this looks like an damage to me that happened during the active life of this keris.

Having said this, I'd estimate the fittings to be from the 20th century; the crosspiece might be a tad older than the rest.

Regards,
Kai

I don't know, Kai that depression in the handle looks pretty smooth to me, especially looking at the Seller's pictures, I think I must disagree considering the length of the blade.

And Yes, David, I have more than once regretted letting that go.

[David]

Originally Posted by Rick

And Yes, David, I have more than once regretted letting that go.

Sorry to hear you have regrets Rick. Be assured that it is well cared for and in very good company. If you send me a photo i can show it to the keris every now and then so that you are not forgotten.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by David

Sorry to hear you have regrets Rick. Be assured that it is well cared for and in very good company. If you send me a photo i can show it to the keris every now and then so that you are not forgotten.

Tongue in cheek David, tongue in cheek.

[David]

Originally Posted by Rick

Tongue in cheek David, tongue in cheek.

And right back attacha buddy.