Spear?

[aspalathos]

Need help,opinion please .

[CSinTX]

Opinion, looks to be a fairly recently made one off.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by CSinTX

Opinion, looks to be a fairly recently made one off.

For our edification, Why do you say that?

[Raf]

Boar spear . Looks ok to me. Interesting that they were also considered a fighting weapon.

[Akanthus]

Normally the rectangular part of boarfeathers is part of the shaft and tied to it.It is mostly not a part of the blade .It should prevent that the blade penetrating too deep in the wildboars body.If it's old, for me the spear is a simple weapon for use in a revolt ,for example in the peasant wars.At that time the bkacksmithes created simple but effective weapons often by changing agricultural tools.Pehaps it is a later collector weapon ,that should remember of those times

[Radboud]

Good people, looking at the photo of it in Aspalathos' hand, the blade appears too short to be a functional weapon, especially not a boar spear that needs to punch through thick hide and a ribcage to get to the animal's heart.

From the crude forging overall and especially of the socket, while having a counter sunk hole for a securing screw, I suspect this to be a modern decorative piece.

[aspalathos]

Originally Posted by aspalathos

Need help,opinion please .

photos

[M ELEY]

I think the piece shows appropriate age, but I know with blacksmith-made pieces, it's sometimes hard to tell. I know the crossguard points to a boar spear, but any possibility this could be a primitive spontoon? Colonial/frontier? It could easily pass as a Spanish colonial or even American Rev War piece. I am assuming you live in Europe, Aspalathos? Where did you acquire the piece?

[Jim McDougall]

Capn, Im not surprised your radar piqued (or should I say 'piked' ) on this one!
Trusty Neumann, "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution".
Though this shown is a European type of boarding pike, it is not a far reach to imagine a blacksmith in America fashioning one of these following that design for vessels in the fledgling Colonial Navy.

Much as with most polearms, the objective is not to impale the victim or opponent thus losing use of the weapon. With the Mexican Lancers at the Battle of San Pascual in California in 1846, the riders were using cibolero (buffalo hunting) type lances. The overrun American dragoons lost in the battle were all with multiple stabbing wounds, often as many as 16, indicating the jabbing method employed in attack.

As Neumann notes, the cross bars (resembling those of course on boar hunt weapons) were 'parrying hooks' as seen on two handers and many hunting polearms.

[aspalathos]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I think the piece shows appropriate age, but I know with blacksmith-made pieces, it's sometimes hard to tell. I know the crossguard points to a boar spear, but any possibility this could be a primitive spontoon? Colonial/frontier? It could easily pass as a Spanish colonial or even American Rev War piece. I am assuming you live in Europe, Aspalathos? Where did you acquire the piece?

Hi,Croatia ,before comes from Sweden,before that Germany…but who knowes where it started from ….

[M ELEY]

Hello Jim and thanks for posting that. That's exactly what I was going for. I know it could be either, but the primitive seam on the side of the cap, the workmanship and the lack of langets just had me thinking a possible pike or spontoon of a more provincial quality. I'm not insulting the piece, BTW! I think it is an amazing example either way. I really like the hand-wrought types!

[Raf]

If its old , which it appears to be and looks like a boar spear then that’s probably what it is . The defining characteristics of a boar spear are the wide side bars , as opposed to the lugged spear as in the example illustrated above . A style which goes back to the early medieval period and beyond. The side bars are absolutely necessary to stop the injured boar impaling itself on the spear and savaging its attacker. They must have been an essential hunting tool and although decorative examples do exist the majority were probably simple blacksmith made with no more attention lavished on them than any other agricultural implement . As such I would have thought this is a rare survival that deserves to be celebrated.

Like billhooks they had potential as an extemporised weapon.

From Paulus Hector Mair 1517 – 1579) . German aristocrat, civil servant, and fencer. The boar spear:versus the halberd.

'take his thrust away with your blade on your left side. In that moment, follow in after with your left leg and stab him in his nuts.'

Halberd owners beware
.

[Jim McDougall]

As this is clearly a very old piece and is simply made as would be done by a blacksmith, and in the manner known to have been used in boar hunting spears, it would seem that by Occams principle..it must be a boar spear head.As this is a discussion sharing opinions, all we can do is speculate, and present our cases accordingly.

It is well known that often tools (implements) could become weapons, just as often weapons became tools (using swords for utility). Hunting swords were essentially hangers and used for both.

It is well noted that the lugs on the naval boarding pike I posted are narrow, however the blade seems to have remarkable similarity. Here I would note that pikes did not always have such lugs or crossbars, often simply with blade alone. However, looking into other contemporary polearms, the spontoon typically seemed to have this kind of crossbar, though often in decorative shapes.
Perhaps the cross bar equipped spontoon might have been used in boar hunting?

According to the late Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons",1971) in describing the tucks (thrusting swords) used in hunting boar, sometimes had the crossbar or some type of device to limit penetration (sometimes a disc on the blade) but not invariably. The purpose noted for protecting the hunter seems of course to have become more thoroughly present through the years.

Returning to the potential for this being perhaps an ersatz weapon, for the 'cause' in Revolutionary War times, George Neumann (op.cit.) notes on p.193:
"...when the American Revolution began, the colonies were unable to arm all of their forces with firearms. As a supplementary interim weapon they resorted to the 17th c. pike. The heads were easily forged by local blacksmiths and mounted on poles averaging 12-16 ft. in length".

Further, "...apparently the same crude heads used on land were employed by American naval vessels for boarding spears. The shafts were generally shorter than the land pike (about 5-7 ft.) and omitted the iron butt cone which cut into the wood decks".

It is worth noting that in the American Revolution, much as the circumstances in the Spanish colonies, firearms were much more an issue than typically described in the literature. In the Spanish colonies, especially in the northern frontiers far from regular supply entrepots, guns were not especially reliable and poorly serviced. To make matters worse, the even bigger issue was powder, almost invariably of poor quality and lack of availability. This led to the lance becoming the most commonly used weapon.
This was not just in warfare, but hunting.

In the American Revolution, contrary to popular belief, the flintlock long gun on every mantle was not a standard, and fewer colonists had or knew how to use guns than realized ("Arming America", Michael Bellisles, 2000). Again, the even bigger problem was the lack of ammunition and powder.

While these kinds of crudely made weapons are not commonly found in collecting, as most were simply discarded through the years, and did not have the obvious appeal of edged weapons or guns, they remain most interesting relics when found.

Shown is a British spontoon, detail listed on these notes that the crossbar is intended to prevent penetration into enemy from going too deep, thus preventing withdrawal of the weapon and effectively disarming the user.

[Raf]

It occurred to me that the blade shape of Aspalathos spear might be generically related to to the blades of boar hunting swords. Good for poking the pig on horseback but maybe not so good for wrestling it on the ground.

[M ELEY]

My point exactly, Jim. Many of the spontoons of the era had a crosspiece as well and some of the more privative-style types resemble the piece being discussed. I'm not counting out that it could be a boar spear head, but there's room for other possibilities. Great picture of a British spontoon, BTW!

[Raf]

So when Lyon and Turnbull described these as German or Bohemian boar spears they got it wrong ?

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by Raf

So when Lyon and Turnbull described these as German or Bohemian boar spears they got it wrong ?

Hi,
It would seem so.
Regards,
Norman.

https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-25511.html

https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-33633.html

https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-28532.html

[Raf]

Agreed. My point was to show that spontoons , genuine or copies sometimes get mis described as boar spears.

[Jim McDougall]

What?! an arms reference made a misteake?
Arms study is always a work in progress, and most authors I am familiar with typically add a disclaimer in their introductions that there will invariably be errors in some cases.

It seems of course that there is an innate comparison between many types of tools and weapons, and as noted earlier often one can become the other and vice versa. There may be notable influences between these as well.

As a matter of functionality, the cross bar's purpose, to prevent excessive penetration in hunting boars would serve as well on a combat weapon. Perhaps the convention on the spontoon had the same root?

By that token, could a spontoon serve as a boar hunting weapon? of course, just as Raf noted early in this discussion.

Good observation BTW Raf, on the remarkable shape of the expanded point on the boar hunt sword! that is a compelling comparison to the blade on the example in OP .

Here I would note again that there are with colonial arms (and tools for that matter), incredible numbers of variants in the examples made by blacksmiths, which of understandably are often in majority.
This is the bane of the arms researcher, trying to categorize or identify these items which are 'outside the box' visually.

Polearms and staff weapons seem to vex many (including me) with the proper terms and classifications. What separates pike from spontoon?
the halberd is easier as it has an axe type head and poll but is simply on a longer shaft instead of handle.

While we may not reach a consensus on the identification of this apparently very old piece, the possibilities remain intriguing, and the discussion here is valuable in the salient points that have come up. Thats what its all about!!

PS,
This reminds me of the flensing knife (for whaling) I posted recently, with a crescent type blade as identified in several nautical antiquities references........and was countered by identification of a virtually identical example used by leather workers.
Could these same type knives have been utilized by both? why not?

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Spontoons come in a variety of guises, here are two 18thC ones I have and an illustration of the halberd type. I would suggest the crosspiece on a spontoon is more decorative than utilitarian as a mortal wound need not be much more than a couple of inches a lot less than the total blade length on a spontoon.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. It is obviously no surprise to any of us that an auction misidentified an item.

[Akanthus]

Originally Posted by Raf

If its old , which it appears to be and looks like a boar spear then that’s probably what it is . The defining characteristics of a boar spear are the wide side bars , as opposed to the lugged spear as in the example illustrated above . A style which goes back to the early medieval period and beyond. The side bars are absolutely necessary to stop the injured boar impaling itself on the spear and savaging its attacker. They must have been an essential hunting tool and although decorative examples do exist the majority were probably simple blacksmith made with no more attention lavished on them than any other agricultural implement . As such I would have thought this is a rare survival that deserves to be celebrated.

Like billhooks they had potential as an extemporised weapon.

From Paulus Hector Mair 1517 – 1579) . German aristocrat, civil servant, and fencer. The boar spear:versus the halberd.

'take his thrust away with your blade on your left side. In that moment, follow in after with your left leg and stab him in his nuts.'

Halberd owners beware
.

Yes Raff you are right.The cross bars have to prevent penetrating the blade too deep in the animals body,so that the hunter could not draw back the boar spear.If you look at the classic spears, the cross bars are never part of the blades.They are connected to the socket of the blade or to the shaft by leather strips or later they were srewed to the socket.Often you can find holes in this area ,because the bars got lost.The bars have to be flexible,because you have to move the spear to enlarge the wound,so that the lounges collapse and the animal dies quickly.Bars,connected to the blade would inhibit the mobility of the spear and would be counterproductive.The blade doesn't have to be very long.20 to 30 cm are sufficient.

[Raf]

Their are illustrations that look as if the blade and cross bar are one piece. Not sure how old , or genuine the second example is.

[Akanthus]

Originally Posted by Raf

Their are illustrations that look as if the blade and cross bar are one piece. Not sure how old , or genuine the second example is.

Perhaps the forms i saw in the collections and i refer to ,developed from the early forms you showed in the book illustration ( Late 15.th Century ? ) With the weapon on picture 2 i would not like to struggle with an angry wildboar……

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
Spontoons come in a variety of guises, ... and an illustration of the halberd type. I... .

MY 'Halberd' Type: LOA 2 m.

[fernando]

... And we call the cross bars "Travincas".


.

[Akanthus]

Originally Posted by Akanthus

Yes Raff you are right.The cross bars have to prevent penetrating the blade too deep in the animals body,so that the hunter could not draw back the boar spear.If you look at the classic spears, the cross bars are never part of the blades.They are connected to the socket of the blade or to the shaft by leather strips or later they were srewed to the socket.Often you can find holes in this area ,because the bars got lost.The bars have to be flexible,because you have to move the spear to enlarge the wound,so that the lounges collapse and the animal dies quickly.Bars,connected to the blade would inhibit the mobility of the spear and would be counterproductive.The blade doesn't have to be very long.20 to 30 cm are sufficient.

Pics.:
- Vor und nach der Jägerprüfung, Krebs,2004
-Katalog Deutsches Jagd und Fischereimuseum ,München,1966
- Blankwaffen im Museum Jagdschloss Kranichstein,Westphal,2010