Use of Actual Vintage Arms as Props in Early Films - Page 2

kronckew · 11th February 2023, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

.... I am wondering if anyone has seen any specific literature on this apparently very esoteric subject. Jerseyman, do you know of references?
The books you noted on the actors as swordsmen, but nothing on the weapons they used.

I have just acquired a 'Celtic/La Tene' sword, with an anthropomorphic hilt in cast bronze, nicely stamped 'Verch & Flothow', Charlottenburg' They made weapons for stage combat for the Charlottenburg Palace Theatre in Berlin late 19c/early 20c. They made swords for plays and operas covering all periods.

I can't find much by googling that, but I did find one of their rapiers that went for a multi-thousand Euro price recently.

I've been told they were made with German meticulousness, with the same methods an original antique one would have been.

You might be able to use that and branch out your research.

werecow · 11th February 2023, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Splits in the handles of older Sikkins seem almost ubiquitous.

Yeah... The mouth on the pommel end seems almost made to facilitate it.

kronckew · 11th February 2023, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

Yeah... The mouth on the pommel end seems almost made to facilitate it.

I use 'Hooflex' on my horn grips.

werecow · 11th February 2023, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

:) I use 'Hooflex' on my horn grips.

I've used neatsfoot oil on a dried out yataghan grip before, so that makes sense.

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2023, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

I have just acquired a 'Celtic/La Tene' sword, with an anthropomorphic hilt in cast bronze, nicely stamped 'Verch & Flothow', Charlottenburg' They made weapons for stage combat for the Charlottenburg Palace Theatre in Berlin late 19c/early 20c. They made swords for plays and operas covering all periods.

I can't find much by googling that, but I did find one of their rapiers that went for a multi-thousand Euro price recently.

I've been told they were made with German meticulousness, with the same methods an original antique one would have been.

You might be able to use that and branch out your research.

That is really helpful!! Thats the first definitive maker name I have seen.
Thank you so much!

kronckew · 16th February 2023, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

That is really helpful!! Thats the first definitive maker name I have seen.
Thank you so much!

Another name for you Aug. Schneider, Berlin.

From theatrical swords: (not mine) 19-20c

Lead Snowstorm · 23rd February 2023, 12:31 AM

For those interested in more 'modern' weapons, my most frequently encountered weapons with cinematic heritage tend to be the various trapdoor rifles (usually 1873-1884). On the one hand, they were of course the actual weapons used in the west, which was formerly a very hot subject of interest, although cooling lately.

On the other hand, as the last of the sidelock, hammer-fired rifles, they conveniently could fire cartridge blanks but be mocked-up to look like flintlocks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0lO...rgottenWeapons

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-l...5-c-121427f8a3

Ian · 12th March 2023, 03:01 PM

Jim,

I'm just getting to your fascinating thread on theatrical weapons. You mentioned people going through old movie companies' prop collections and culling weapons. In eBay's early days there was a Californian seller who had a ton of this stuff. I bought a few pieces. Of note were two swords from Yul Brunner's version of Genghis Khan (1965). Both swords were for extras. Each was a U.S. cavalry saber from the 1860s from which the hilt and guard had been removed and a crude aluminum hilt added. I still have them somewhere and I think I still have the sales docket from the late 90s/early 2000s. I believe the sabers came from Bannerman's Catalog originally and were modified on site by the props people.

I have a few other swords from the same source but I don't know which movies they may have been used in. Again, they were 19th C pieces, and from memory they were Austrian sabers (but I will have to dig back in my archives to get that info.).

Cheers,

Ian.

Jim McDougall · 12th March 2023, 10:27 PM

[QUOTE=Ian;280106]Jim,

I'm just getting to your fascinating thread on theatrical weapons. You mentioned people going through old movie companies' prop collections and culling weapons. In eBay's early days there was a Californian seller who had a ton of this stuff. I bought a few pieces. Of note were two swords from Yul Brunner's Taras Bulba (1962). Both swords were for extras. Each was a U.S. cavalry saber from the 1860s from which the hilt and guard had been removed and a crude aluminum hilt added. I still have them somewhere and I think I still have the sales docket from the late 90s/early 2000s. I believe the sabers came from Bannerman's Catalog originally and were modified on site by the props people.

I have a few other swords from the same source but I don't know which movies they may have been used in. Again, they were 19th C pieces, and from memory they were Austrian sabers (but I will have to dig back in my archives to get that info.).

Thats outstanding Ian! and thank you for adding to this thread. It sounds like the 'adjustments' that were used in customizing these authentic old weapons to add to the ambience in scenes.
No doubt Bannerman's was a great source for this stuff....after the Civil Wat they literally bought old cavalry sabers by the ton. When the Spanish American war broke out (at the behest of William Randolph Hearst who needed headlines for his papers)...the Army needed sabers for the cavalry and had to go to Bannerman to equip them!

Kmaddock · 11th April 2023, 11:45 AM

Hi All

Spurred on by this thread I purchased over the weekend the following pistol marked Bapty on the barrel

Bapty & Co was established by Mark Dinely in 1919 to produce firearms for film and television.

The pistol was sold as a reproduction but it is actually a genuine Turkish/Caucuses flintlock in good enough condition, The BAPTY mark is on top of the Barrel put there by electro pen and BAP is stamped on beside the trigger also. There is silver wire work alson with silver escutcheon and my friend informs me the mechanism is working.

A mate of mine picked up the gun and I am meeting him this week.

The same company is still going strong and they made the Stormtroopers guns in the original Star Wars and also the guns used by the Marines in Alien 2.

Thanks Jim, I would have ignored the auction listing except for this thread.

Regards,

Ken

picture from auction listing is all I have for moment

gp · 11th April 2023, 01:19 PM

another positive effect of these films: it did give fencing clubs a membership boost!

When my daughter was 13 or 14....she fell in love with a very handsome pirate from the Caribbean....Jack Sparrow!
Persistant as she was, my daughter that is, traded swimming and ballet for fencing !
I guess quite some fencing clubs did grow because of Jack Sparrow....

When I was a young lad, my hero was Zorro (Guy Williams) but it was not easy and quite expensive to get fencing or sword lessons.

Glad my daughter and many girls with her had that opportunity; membership was only 30 Euro's per month and a foil or epee for 100 ( less than football/soccer boots...)

and talking vintage: vintage epees or foils can be bought for very reasonable prices in Germany, Austria, France, Belgium and the Netherlands

kronckew · 11th April 2023, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

Hi All

Spurred on by this thread I purchased over the weekend the following pistol marked Bapty on the barrel

Bapty & Co was established by Mark Dinely in 1919 to produce firearms for film and television.

The pistol was sold as a reproduction but it is actually a genuine Turkish/Caucuses flintlock in good enough condition, The BAPTY mark is on top of the Barrel put there by electro pen and BAP is stamped on beside the trigger also. There is silver wire work alson with silver escutcheon and my friend informs me the mechanism is working.

A mate of mine picked up the gun and I am meeting him this week.

The same company is still going strong and they made the Stormtroopers guns in the original Star Wars and also the guns used by the Marines in Alien 2.

Thanks Jim, I would have ignored the auction listing except for this thread.

Regards,

Ken

picture from auction listing is all I have for moment

Cool. I wonder if it is Turkish proof marked & might fire a blank charge at least...

Jim McDougall · 11th April 2023, 08:59 PM

Thank you so much for this entry Ken! How exciting to see this outcome, which is a perfect illustration of the existence of actual weaponry which became clouded by presence among weaponry used by studios for films. As Ian has noted earlier, often standard military weapons were altered to simulate the types of weapons of the period and setting.

It is interesting that as films relied heavily on action scenes, especially with the silent films, dramatically exaggerated and intense action often resulted in a degree of accidental injury to the actors. Often actual fencing sabers of the time were used as they were lighter and 'faster' to accommodate such movement.

GP, Hooray for your daughter!!!!! I am totally with you, when I was a 'young lad' too.....in '56 when the first Zorro series with Walt Disney's productions began, and this was what set me on a lifelong odyssey with swords.
When I finally took fencing my dad scoffed, 'great Jim, something you can always use!

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2023, 04:28 PM

In current research and concerning early films, in particular the black & white of course, the actors were typically heavily made up so their expressions were visible to accentuate the drama in sequences.

I discovered it was not just the actors who were 'painted' but also furniture, props etc............and for our purposes here.....WEAPONS!

Over the years, on occasion many old weapons coming up for sale had been painted many years before. I was of course always horrified by this, wondering what sort of fiend would do this to a wonderful old sword!?

Apparently, different colors would photograph differently in the old film and lighting, and it was necessary to use varied colors to achieve harmony in the setting, otherwise it would be a virtual kaleidoscope of imagery.
They actually had coded paint colors to be used in certain situations or in alignment with other colors in object groupings.

So it would seem very likely that these garishly painted old weapons may well have been used in early films as props.

werecow · 14th October 2024, 09:56 PM

Not exactly an "early" film, but... Interesting wizard staff design you got there, Lord of the Rings: Rings of Power...

Jim McDougall · 20th October 2024, 05:24 PM

Just found out that the walls of the Addams family house in the TV series were PINK!!! theres a Halloween tidbit.

23rd February 2023, 12:31 AM	#37
Lead Snowstorm Member Join Date: Jul 2022 Posts: 15	For those interested in more 'modern' weapons, my most frequently encountered weapons with cinematic heritage tend to be the various trapdoor rifles (usually 1873-1884). On the one hand, they were of course the actual weapons used in the west, which was formerly a very hot subject of interest, although cooling lately. On the other hand, as the last of the sidelock, hammer-fired rifles, they conveniently could fire cartridge blanks but be mocked-up to look like flintlocks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0lO...rgottenWeapons https://www.invaluable.com/auction-l...5-c-121427f8a3 Attached Images

12th March 2023, 10:27 PM	#39
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	[QUOTE=Ian;280106]Jim, I'm just getting to your fascinating thread on theatrical weapons. You mentioned people going through old movie companies' prop collections and culling weapons. In eBay's early days there was a Californian seller who had a ton of this stuff. I bought a few pieces. Of note were two swords from Yul Brunner's Taras Bulba (1962). Both swords were for extras. Each was a U.S. cavalry saber from the 1860s from which the hilt and guard had been removed and a crude aluminum hilt added. I still have them somewhere and I think I still have the sales docket from the late 90s/early 2000s. I believe the sabers came from Bannerman's Catalog originally and were modified on site by the props people. I have a few other swords from the same source but I don't know which movies they may have been used in. Again, they were 19th C pieces, and from memory they were Austrian sabers (but I will have to dig back in my archives to get that info.). Thats outstanding Ian! and thank you for adding to this thread. It sounds like the 'adjustments' that were used in customizing these authentic old weapons to add to the ambience in scenes. No doubt Bannerman's was a great source for this stuff....after the Civil Wat they literally bought old cavalry sabers by the ton. When the Spanish American war broke out (at the behest of William Randolph Hearst who needed headlines for his papers)...the Army needed sabers for the cavalry and had to go to Bannerman to equip them! Last edited by Ian; 13th March 2023 at 03:55 AM. Reason: Corrected film title

11th April 2023, 11:45 AM	#40
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi All Spurred on by this thread I purchased over the weekend the following pistol marked Bapty on the barrel Bapty & Co was established by Mark Dinely in 1919 to produce firearms for film and television. The pistol was sold as a reproduction but it is actually a genuine Turkish/Caucuses flintlock in good enough condition, The BAPTY mark is on top of the Barrel put there by electro pen and BAP is stamped on beside the trigger also. There is silver wire work alson with silver escutcheon and my friend informs me the mechanism is working. A mate of mine picked up the gun and I am meeting him this week. The same company is still going strong and they made the Stormtroopers guns in the original Star Wars and also the guns used by the Marines in Alien 2. Thanks Jim, I would have ignored the auction listing except for this thread. Regards, Ken picture from auction listing is all I have for moment Attached Images

11th April 2023, 01:19 PM	#41
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 717	another positive effect of these films: it did give fencing clubs a membership boost! When my daughter was 13 or 14....she fell in love with a very handsome pirate from the Caribbean....Jack Sparrow! Persistant as she was, my daughter that is, traded swimming and ballet for fencing ! I guess quite some fencing clubs did grow because of Jack Sparrow.... When I was a young lad, my hero was Zorro (Guy Williams) but it was not easy and quite expensive to get fencing or sword lessons. Glad my daughter and many girls with her had that opportunity; membership was only 30 Euro's per month and a foil or epee for 100 ( less than football/soccer boots...) and talking vintage: vintage epees or foils can be bought for very reasonable prices in Germany, Austria, France, Belgium and the Netherlands Last edited by gp; 11th April 2023 at 06:40 PM.

11th December 2023, 04:28 PM	#44
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	PAINTED WEAPONS In current research and concerning early films, in particular the black & white of course, the actors were typically heavily made up so their expressions were visible to accentuate the drama in sequences. I discovered it was not just the actors who were 'painted' but also furniture, props etc............and for our purposes here.....WEAPONS! Over the years, on occasion many old weapons coming up for sale had been painted many years before. I was of course always horrified by this, wondering what sort of fiend would do this to a wonderful old sword!? Apparently, different colors would photograph differently in the old film and lighting, and it was necessary to use varied colors to achieve harmony in the setting, otherwise it would be a virtual kaleidoscope of imagery. They actually had coded paint colors to be used in certain situations or in alignment with other colors in object groupings. So it would seem very likely that these garishly painted old weapons may well have been used in early films as props.

12th March 2023, 03:01 PM	#38
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Jim, I'm just getting to your fascinating thread on theatrical weapons. You mentioned people going through old movie companies' prop collections and culling weapons. In eBay's early days there was a Californian seller who had a ton of this stuff. I bought a few pieces. Of note were two swords from Yul Brunner's version of Genghis Khan (1965). Both swords were for extras. Each was a U.S. cavalry saber from the 1860s from which the hilt and guard had been removed and a crude aluminum hilt added. I still have them somewhere and I think I still have the sales docket from the late 90s/early 2000s. I believe the sabers came from Bannerman's Catalog originally and were modified on site by the props people. I have a few other swords from the same source but I don't know which movies they may have been used in. Again, they were 19th C pieces, and from memory they were Austrian sabers (but I will have to dig back in my archives to get that info.). Cheers, Ian.

11th April 2023, 08:59 PM	#43
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Thank you so much for this entry Ken! How exciting to see this outcome, which is a perfect illustration of the existence of actual weaponry which became clouded by presence among weaponry used by studios for films. As Ian has noted earlier, often standard military weapons were altered to simulate the types of weapons of the period and setting. It is interesting that as films relied heavily on action scenes, especially with the silent films, dramatically exaggerated and intense action often resulted in a degree of accidental injury to the actors. Often actual fencing sabers of the time were used as they were lighter and 'faster' to accommodate such movement. GP, Hooray for your daughter!!!!! I am totally with you, when I was a 'young lad' too.....in '56 when the first Zorro series with Walt Disney's productions began, and this was what set me on a lifelong odyssey with swords. When I finally took fencing my dad scoffed, 'great Jim, something you can always use!

14th October 2024, 09:56 PM	#45
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 493	Not exactly an "early" film, but... Interesting wizard staff design you got there, Lord of the Rings: Rings of Power... Attached Images

20th October 2024, 05:24 PM	#46
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Just found out that the walls of the Addams family house in the TV series were PINK!!! theres a Halloween tidbit.