Bird and Croc?

[Gavin Nugent]

Givin the off topic enquiry I made here;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=16214&page=7

I've opened this thread for a little more insight to my questions here;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=16214&page=7
About this here
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=191
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=197

Images are often hard to gauge in various lights but this is what I was seeing...image #1 the bird, image #2 potentially a stylised Crocodile? #3 same bird from the Madura post.

Detlef, is there any merit to it? Can the carvings be seen in other light?

With thanks

Gavin

[Sajen]

Hello Gav,

Sometimes I am like blind, just before as I was working at the scabbard I noticed the obvious visible beak and bird-like head in front of the wrongko.
But still have to look longer at your posted picture to see the croc.

But I am careful, I have to examine it longer to be sure that it is a parrot, also seen by handles from Madura, or maybe Garuda? I am unsure.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

After looking longer at the scabbard from different views and light I tend to believe what you see as the lower jaw is the leg of the bird or dragon.
And what you describe as splashing water respectively tail is the tail.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Sajen

After looking longer at the scabbard from different views and light I tend to believe what you see as the lower jaw is the leg of the bird or dragon.
And what you describe as splashing water respectively tail is the tail.

That makes a lot more sense thanks Detlef.

What I thought were eyes, what do you think they represent within the bird?

It really is an exceptional example of the type. Congratulations.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Gav,

Sometimes I am like blind, just before as I was working at the scabbard I noticed the obvious visible beak and bird-like head in front of the wrongko.
But still have to look longer at your posted picture to see the croc.

But I am careful, I have to examine it longer to be sure that it is a parrot, also seen by handles from Madura, or maybe Garuda? I am unsure.

Regards,
Detlef

Don't feel too bad mate.

I bought a 25 luk Kelantan Keris many years ago... I knew it was special and I knew I wanted it for my collection... I did not notice for weeks, perhaps longer, that one face was malela and absent of any pamor, the reverse, a non-malela face, with a combination of the most complex talismanic pamors seen only in old Patani manuscripts
I think I was too enamoured in the luks and gold.

There have been a few WTF moments over the years.... you aren't alone...

Gav

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

What I thought were eyes, what do you think they represent within the bird?

Hi Gav,

First, I am not sure if we see a bird here, I tend to Garuda. Would be nice to read what others think.
And no clue what the both spirals should represent.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Don't feel too bad mate.

I bought a 25 luk Kelantan Keris many years ago... I knew it was special and I knew I wanted it for my collection... I did not notice for weeks, perhaps longer, that one face was malela and absent of any pamor, the reverse, a non-malela face, with a combination of the most complex talismanic pamors seen only in old Patani manuscripts
I think I was too enamoured in the luks and gold.

There have been a few WTF moments over the years.... you aren't alone...

It just annoys me that I looked but didn't see!

[JeffS]

The beak is classic parrot (head is crested, cockatoo?) but the dramatic tail plummage doesnt fit. The whorled "croc eyes" may be being clutched by the feet of the bird. Unclear what is under the chin.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Sajen

It just annoys me that I looked but didn't see!

I just embrace and laugh at this thing we call being human...

[JoeCanada42]

Sorry that I lost my cool in my last thread. I read the older threads as suggested. and I got one of your recommended books from the library on its way.

I have something I would like to share about the imagery your looking at, just what I see.
I have done some research and think there is some interesting stuff that can be said..

[kai]

The primary interpretation certainly is flowers - these are commonly found on Madura carvings (coastal Chinese influence, I believe).

There certainly could be (and probably are) additional layers of symbolism added.

Regards,
Kai