My Jian for interest

[David R]

Seeing as Chinese Jian are a current topic I thought I would post mine. Not in the best of condition, some damage to the scabbard but the sword is sound.
I bought it some time ago out of the proceeds of a nice unexpected windfall, and then put it in a cupboard and forgot about it.

Vendors photos.

[Gavin Nugent]

A good honest older pair.

There is still much speculation about the true origins of these, not referring to China, that is a given, but the period they were made.

Some feel they are late 19th/early 20th century, made enmass for trade were occupying forces were concerned and those that followed after.

Other senior and long time collectors of Jian, indicate earlier, and that the type were a standard political gift of the 19th century.

What is known is that they are found in dagger size, mid sized and on the very rare occasion full length... the mid sized being the most common and that they are seen as singles or doubles.

Both are plausible explanations and to date I am yet to see anything other than circumstantial evidence for either train of thought.

When I consider the type based on tensile blade strength and quality of detail in the fittings, I feel the older side of hypothesis.
These types all come with a very strong hard blade, not an easy thing to bend over your knee like some of the later Qing examples...
The factory where these were made did cater for large volumes and a rather standardised type... beyond that, to quote the x-files, the truth is out there... but who is going to find it???

Further notes after posting.
A proper forensic analysis of the manufacture materials may reveal more.
As seen under the losses of the veneer, the timbers are painted yellow... this would be a prime thing to have analysed and I have a spare scabbard here with losses if anyone does want to venture down this road.

[werecow]

I'll add my (slightly worn) twins to this thread. Same style fittings, though in my case the scabbard is plain wood (not sure if it ever had the turtle covering; if it did none of it remains) and the grips have been painted red. Since the scabbard isn't covered you can see the three slats it's made out of.

[kai]

A good honest older pair.

This example seems to be a single sword, Gavin.

Many of these also pop up among Chinese expat communities all over SE Asia.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Dimensions including thickness and weight would be great - thanks, all!

[werecow]

Weight in scabbard 1049g, outside scabbard: 385g (left), 379g (right)
Length in scabbard: 59cm
Length outside scabbard: both 57cm, 42cm blades measured from the inside of the hilt (or 40.5cm measured from the outside scabbard cover protrusion)

They taper slightly in thickness and profile until the last 2cm or so, one a bit more than the other (which explains the slight difference in weight).

Width / thickness at the guard: 32mm / 5mm
Width / thickness halfway down the blade: 29mm / 4mm
Width / thickness 2cm before the tip: 22mm / 3.5mm (right), 4mm (left)

EDIT: POB between 9.5-10cm from the inner guard.

[David R]

This one, a single blade in the scabbard and made that way. Total length of sword 56 cm, blade length 42 cm. Weight in scabbard 516 gms, sword alone 344 gms.

[werecow]

Interesting that yours is ~10% lighter than either of mine while presumably having a more substantial grip.

[Jim McDougall]

As noted by Gav in his post #2, this interesting yellow backed tortoise shell type dress does seem to be diplomatically oriented and the convention situated in about mid 19th c.
This example of similar dress uses a much earlier blade with Manchu characters stamped into the willow leaf style blade.

[Jim McDougall]

As noted by Gav in his post #2, this interesting yellow backed tortoise shell type dress does seem to be diplomatically oriented and the convention situated in about mid 19th c.
This example of similar dress uses a much earlier blade with Manchu characters stamped into the willow leaf style blade.

[kronckew]

Yellow was the Imperial colour.


I read somewhere that a lot of these were made for the armouries if fortified villages and towns for issue to civilians when needed.


Mine looks a bit less classy. Has the heavenly 7 stars brass insets on the blade tho.

[David R]

I remember seeing some old village armoury jian and they were forged all iron and steel blade, guard and pommel with laminated blades. Then I found the original site, here. https://forum.grtc.org/search.php?keywords=village+jian

[kronckew]

Not many photos on that site, Dave.


Could they possibly have been produced for the Boxers late 19/early 20c? They wouldn't have the time to learn the finesse that he longer imperial Jians required.

[David R]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Not many photos on that site, Dave.


Could they possibly have been produced for the Boxers late 19/early 20c? They wouldn't have the time to learn the finesse that he longer imperial Jians required.

Boxers tended to carry and use the Oxtail Dao rather than a Jian...
The problem with a lot of the sites I used to trawl is that they have changed format, don't link in the same way as they did, or even disappeared from the 'net!

Aha, this is a better link. https://forum.grtc.org/viewforum.php?f=15 To be honest, I am always wary about linking to other sites, I fear to trespass.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David R

Boxers tended to carry and use the Oxtail Dao rather than a Jian...
The problem with a lot of the sites I used to trawl is that they have changed format, don't link in the same way as they did, or even disappeared from the 'net!

Aha, this is a better link. https://forum.grtc.org/viewforum.php?f=15 To be honest, I am always wary about linking to other sites, I fear to trespass.

If I recall, fom historical images, the masses typically just carried crude clubs with fewer having cold steel at hand.

[David R]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

If I recall, fom historical images, the masses typically just carried crude clubs with fewer having cold steel at hand.

Boxers, aka "Society of the Harmonious Fist" were members of a nationalist martial arts group, you are thinking of urban rioters. A lot to unpack in that era, and don't go by Western propaganda.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David R

Boxers, aka "Society of the Harmonious Fist" were members of a nationalist martial arts group, you are thinking of urban rioters. A lot to unpack in that era, and don't go by Western propaganda.

Absolutely.

I made the comment based on this historical photo.
https://www.thoughtco.com/chinas-box...-photos-195618

The book which the image is on the cover
https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520...boxer-uprising
It offers a very detailed history of the forces behind the scenes within various secret societies, how they developed and what ultimately played out...

[David R]

I think we are in danger of serious digression from the main subject of Jian here, but here is a link to a very informed discussion, and a photo of a "Boxer" with his Oxtail Dao.... and there I will leave it.

https://chinesemartialstudies.com/?s=boxer+rebellion

[Philip]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Yellow was the Imperial colour.


I read somewhere that a lot of these were made for the armouries if fortified villages and towns for issue to civilians when needed.


Mine looks a bit less classy. Has the heavenly 7 stars brass insets on the blade tho.

Your example is a touristic item made in Taiwan, during the Vietnam War era. I saw some in a shop in Waikiki, of all places, with tiny paper labels "made in Taiwan" on them. They also had Thai dhas with aluminum ferrules and guards which were also brought back as souvenirs by GIs on R&R in Thailand. On these jian-like objects, the rustic wood carving is something I suppose is a simplistic and not-very-realistic interpretation of Taiwan aboriginal craft work because you don't find this sort of timber or style of deco on the scabbards of real antique jian.