Shaolin Tai Chi Jian not Wudang, Wu Jian & Wen Jian, Taoist, Antique, Battle ready

[JoeCanada42]

some notes
Shaolin being the external art and Wudang internal
by 1980 only a handfull of shaolin monks remained
at one point shaolin monks were fighting pirates
Taoism banned in 1949

"Jian blades became more refined and more popular among martial artists and martial-arts societies beginning in the Ming Dynasty of 1368-1644 and the Qing Dynasty of 1644-1912. Most antique jian swords one sees nowadays are mid to late Qing Dynasty blades. The White Crane site says excellent swords were also made in China's Republican era until 1920 or later."

https://www.ancient-origins.net/news...n-knife-003241


"Sword Zones
The length is divided into three zones. The top third of the blade is extremely thin and razor sharp. The top third is never used for blocking because it can be notched very easily. Instead, this sharp part is used only for attack. The middle third of the blade is thicker and less sharp than the top third. This part of the blade is used for sliding, guiding away, sticking, and cutting. The bottom third of the blade is very thick and unsharpened and is generally used for situations when violent blocking is needed. The taiji martial artist attempts to keep his opponents in the middle and long range for proper use of his weapon.

A. Scholar's Sword (Wen Jian, 文劍). This sword is also called a female sword. It is long and light, with a rounded tip. It is not commonly used for war, but for self-defense and for dancing. It was also commonly carried by scholars to present an elegant appearance or was hung on a wall to decorate a room.

B. Martial Sword (Wu Jian, 武劍). This sword, also known as a male sword, is long and heavy, with a pointed tip. Be- cause of its killing potential, it was mainly used in battle.

https://ymaa.com/articles/2015/07/the-sword-structure




here are some swords I found interesting....

and a big question

has anyone else ever seen a Wu Jian side by side with a Wen Jian???

my thoughts on the swords, built for the art of fighting, not the act, these swords are more refined, specialized and can be put to greater use then a soldiers Jian, particularly when used by someone trained in the art

[JoeCanada42]

actually just found another example that is very interesting....

[JoeCanada42]

well I don't think anyone else has, so ill share, it will appease the spirits of the swords.
pictured is a sword I shared before the "red dragon"
and the center piece is my newest acquisition" the shaolin ", just arrived today from Australia.
I knew what to expect and yet.. was very happily surprised. the size of this sword was more than I expected, it is a very powerful weapon...

the seller said he bought it as a 19c weapon but is selling it as he is uncertain of the true age. I found the auction listing where this same sword sold from england 28 Dec 2022 described as 19c,, seems its just recently traveled around the world..

[JoeCanada42]

few more...

[kai]

Hello Joe,

I honestly appreciate your enthusiasm - please keep it!

some notes
Shaolin being the external art and Wudang internal
by 1980 only a handfull of shaolin monks remained
at one point shaolin monks were fighting pirates
Taoism banned in 1949

Having said that, I feel you need to validate your sources more critically: Not all information (online, printed, whatever) is of equal value. Separating the wheat (or rice) from the chaff is crucial for any real progress.

For example, one might ask oneself, when the first record of a Shaolin monastery with special fighting ability of its monks got mentioned in official gazetteers or any other imperial documents. A quote from any accepted translations will do for a start...

Or when any Taiji jian (or Taijiquan in general) practise entered the Shaolin curriculum? Or the curriculum of the Wudang crowd? Or, for that matter, which jian practise entered Taijiquan where and when?

Have fun slaying ghosts!

Actually, none of this bears much on the actual use of the jian since its early versions predate any of the extant martial arts (most codified fairly late) and jian having been in use all over China (and beyond) in many fighting styles. Certainly no need to focus on taijiquan despite its popularity (some of it well deserved, some of it not deserved).


Back to the current piece: I can't read the metal of the blade from the pics - some cleaning and light etching might allow additional insights. Please also add the weight of both pieces (without scabbard).

I believe though that you need to follow-up on the advice given by the most experienced members like Philip in your earlier thread here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26884 (IMNSHO worth re-reading till the very end).

Regards,
Kai

[JoeCanada42]

Hi Kai thanks for some input.
I did just re-read the post for the red dragon, seems the fittings and the ray skin plus+ the lacquer were giving doubts. (i think the shaolin is much better dressed)
I like Jim's post about it being a gift like tribute, I need to research more of that.
also I like the ideas of it being possibly older and yet hard to distinguish...

The main take aways I get from rereading it are Kungfu, Buddhist, Taoist, Ming.
my shaolin idea I don't know where that came from but it seemed to fit, (actually when researching shaolin swords, I also saw similar modern productions of this very similar style sword called shaolin, this made me feel more confident in making the link.)

"A quote from any accepted translations will do for a start..." I couldn't possibly provide that...

"cleaning and light etching might allow additional insights" I have never etched a blade and don't really want to start with this one.

I have imagination, not astute studious scholarly abilities such as yourself and others. I can share ideas and photos...weights etc... I come here to allow more capable, willing and interested people also to learn from it. and and as a shortcut to some info, I hope they would share.

I think my research may always seem lacking, I will never produce any threads that are exposition like as many of you do.

I am quite satisfied already with the sword and my limited knowledge of the many possible histories. the sword looks like chilled steel and has the leaping dragon, I read about how they could possibly throw these swords, this one does feel like it could cut through 10 other swords . very fluid movement despite its size, good balance point, no vibration..

sometimes I am worried people are afraid to give they're positive opinions as they don't want to help confirm a bonafide example and educate other potential buyers. I understand for swords of good old example such as ibans , they can make some members bid a little crazy or even some fall for fake handles.

experts can be wrong, there was the recent post about the museum with a replica that turned out to be the real deal.
I really hope Philip will come take a look at these new examples I am sharing

I own two and have seen 3 total with the exact same dragon carving.
someone , somewhere, sometime, may be able to identify this dragon mark and it may solve a big part of this mystery.

[Sajen]

I am afraid Joe, I am not well informed by jians but have handled a few, to my eyes all look like reproductions from the mid. 20th century. Sorry, but this is what I think.

Regards,
Detlef

[JoeCanada42]

During the Middle Ages, most swords were relatively light. By the 15th century, larger and heavier swords had been developed, including the 'Bastard' or 'Hand-and-a-half' sword. They were hybrid swords that enabled blows to be delivered with the power of a two-handed sword but could also be wielded with one hand.

https://collections.royalarmouries.o...h%20one%20hand.

The versatility of the design prevented the sword from being specifically categorized as either a one-handed or two-handed weapon. The word bastard was therefore to this sword meaning something irregular or inferior or of dubious origin, having a misleading appearance

https://english.stackexchange.com/qu...g%20appearance.

funny that bastard is used as a curse word meaning different father, actually more accurately, born without marriage?

[JoeCanada42]

maybe my definition of bastard isn't right... here's synonyms, illegitimate, misbegotten, baseborn, spurious, supposititious, motherless, fatherless, nameless;

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Sajen

I am afraid Joe, I am not well informed by jians but have handled a few, to my eyes all look like reproductions from the mid. 20th century. Sorry, but this is what I think.

Regards,
Detlef

Agreed except they can be much later than mid 20th. Unfortunately the market for these appeared generally from the late 90s and continued until the mid 2010s in force and many swords like these appeared at that time

Just to address one comment about identifying replicas and why perhaps some do not comment. Pointing out publicly how a replica is recognized is a good way to allow those making replicas to correct the flaws in their work. I can safely say the lack of comments has nothing to do with any attempt to keep prices low for these swords.

As always with antique collecting, books are often worth more than cheaper pieces of suspect provenance.

[JoeCanada42]

late 19c-to early 20c as you called it would be Qing ,
seems the market acceptance, perception and value of these swords has gone up quite a bit recently.
I just looked at all the ones sold on mandarin mansion, I like mine more , I wouldn't trade it for any I seen. I also saw the work done on polishing some of these, where the brass was old like mine with rot? and the rayskin had heavy varnish? removed.
I also seen great river taoist center swords on youtube and got to say mine looks very well made compared to his explanations and comparisons

I see one with the same orange ray skin and same fittings as an example I provided ,similar blade but no dragon I could see, it is for sale now, called Ming, listed for thousands...

[JoeCanada42]

with xrf technology and unique symbols, provenance may be lacking but age and origin can be confirmed

seem most auctions don't touch Chinese swords unless they know what tomb or excavation site they come from. this I think keeps the market value low for swords of quality kept in closests or underappreciated. maybe more will come out of hiding when they are recognized properly

[JoeCanada42]

before the fittings on the red dragon were seen to be crude, but this could be seen as part of the Daoist tradition of taking things as they come and not making an effort.

[JoeCanada42]

maybe its the fact that these can be found on eBay rather than a retail dealer ,
this fact takes away a honey pot , and customers

[werecow]

How flexible are the blades? Presumably not a hard rule but from what I understand, if they are very floppy they are most likely recent (I don't know if the reverse will tell you anything).

[Sajen]

The engravings on the blades I never have seen by old examples, only by tourist or collector swords.
Compare!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=jian
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=jian
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=jian
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=jian
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=jian

There are more jians shown here, look also sold pieces by dealers, not one jian which I can remember was described as authentic have had this engravings on the blade. But like said, I know next to nothing about them but we have members here who can give a very educated opinion.

Regards,
Detlef

[JoeCanada42]

no flexibility in either blades

at least one auction house in Britain called mine 19c

I like mine better then those, your not clear if you are showing me examples u think are fake or authentic? those have no carvings but I can show you old ones with carvings.... and many new ones without.

great river Taoist center on YouTube shows a Jian with a dragon carving much more Mulan style.

there are reproduction swords obviously, and obviously the old ones will look like the reproductions , thats why they are called that no...
the old ones are definitely easy to distinguish from the new.
if you can make a replica to this quality you dont need to be frauding people with fakes.
acutaly i think the idea of "aged fraud " replicas is exagerated, most replicas are sold as replicas originally, its just the middlemen who may misrepresent.

this is my opinion on Jian swords...
Chinese bronze swords I find scary but interesting, but of course casting bronze is easier then forging steel, tapered, fullered steel,

most Qing Jian's I see are wall hanger quality, without good taper , hardness, fullers, ,

[JoeCanada42]

dragon

[werecow]

@Joe: Do they have a lot of distal taper?

[JoeCanada42]

yup, as you would expect in a true old quality piece made for use. I will get some photos

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by JoeCanada42

I like mine better then those, your not clear if you are showing me examples u think are fake or authentic? those have no carvings but I can show you old ones with carvings.... and many new ones without.

I have shown you these threads where I think that are shown old examples and I want to show you that it's difficult to find the real deal, read through the given threads.
And what auction houses state is complete irrelevant, I have seen a lot of wrong described items by auction houses, I never believe them. Mandaus described as African machete or Asian weapons described as African and reverse.
Hope an expert joins in, like I said, I can be wrong.

Regards,
Detlef

[Gavin Nugent]

Sadly none of these swords, owned or pictured are genuine antiques but are of a very modern type, in some instances made to look older than they are.

Very few auction houses know what they are selling, they do it for the commissions and commissions out with every sale. This can be said too for specialist auction houses... I too have been fooled by clever images, lucky enough to be provided a full refund once substantiated.

Full length Jian prior to the Republican types and some of the more common pattern later Qing examples are simply extremely hard to find. I've have friends and clients on want lists here who have been chasing one for near a decade... and I actively seek such things daily.

Don't despair though, it is all a learning curve and plan to put some decent money aside to secure a genuine old one....

If you want something to practice with, there are a good many modern faithful reproductions... or choose a nice Republication example like this example pictured...
The one pictured is what I call a lucky find. That activity within the blade is actually hidden under an original bright steel polish... it is just the camera angle that bought it forth.

For collecting, dig a little deeper in to museum collections in the UK and USA... and there are a good many smaller museums elsewhere around the world with good material to study.

[JoeCanada42]

A 60-year-old Chinese farmer who found an old sword blade digging in the ground used it as a kitchen knife for several years before realizing its value and historical importance. He may have disallowed efforts to determine its exact age by polishing and sharpening it.

see photo


"Don't despair though, it is all a learning curve and plan to put some decent money aside to secure a genuine old one"

far more likely if I am to acquire another! quality genuine old one, it will be cheap, because its will be from a seller who was misinformed

I recently visited swords and antique weapons .com, they got a Mandau but I think mine is nicer and more genuine. more unique by many means.
I looked at the Jian's that have been selling over there, again none that I would ever trade for mine. infact I even saw presentation Jian swords sold over there...

I think a true treasure will never be sold at a retail dealer, the best treasure are found among the hoi polloi , made easier with ebay...

[JoeCanada42]

I have acquired many unbelievably hard to find even impossible to believe things , more so of late, for cheap ,way below retail, not from dealers or from pros, in fact u just cant find such treasure at dealers because good stuff moves up the chain with ease not put on market.

we all know old blades get remounted, some many times, how can any one say what is a reproduction without handling the blade or examining it, unless you have a stake in the matter , and want to influence public perception perhaps? in which case such biased comments I hope people take with caution..

always everything with a grain of salt, maybe dont trust auctions?, where good prices can be had. but can you trust dealers?

[Gavin Nugent]

If it quacks like a duck, it is usually a duck...

I wish you well with your "Pro" EBay "treasure" gathering, good things still turn up on occasion.

With thanks

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by JoeCanada42

A 60-year-old Chinese farmer who found an old sword blade digging in the ground used it as a kitchen knife for several years before realizing its value and historical importance. He may have disallowed efforts to determine its exact age by polishing and sharpening it.

A typical late qing marking, nothing remarkable there.

Here are a few titles you could dig in to if you have interest in the types...

One of these titles in particular will show you the sword at least one of the above was copied from.

I've never really owned many to be fair.....

[JoeCanada42]

fair enough ,
thanks

I feel the ducks I buy are geese and they lay golden eggs

[JoeCanada42]

took a new photo and found another interesting one to compare,
with an almost completely degenerated depiction of a dragon?

[JoeCanada42]

closer up

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by JoeCanada42

I feel the ducks I buy are geese and they lay golden eggs

Joe, believe Gav or not, it's your choice. And for sure you can purchase treasures by epray but others also search there but to find the treasures you have to know your stuff.
I have been collecting now over twenty years and know a little bit about the area I collect but even after all the years and the little knowledge I've gathered I can get fooled.
Gav is a dealer, he knows his stuff well enough, you don't need to be skeptical.
Be happy that he told you the truth, there are other people here like Peter Decker for example, ask him by pm, I am sure that he will tell you the same.
Some others may don't join in because they are only smiling.
Sorry for my open words, it's not personal meant.

Regards,
Detlef