New Acquisition, Mandau, said to be 1800's

[JoeCanada42]

Got this monster from Australia, the buyer claimed it to be a genuine old one.
given the evidence I would like to agree. I have seen many new ones in YouTube videos and online, out of all the ones I have seen on the market, with my limited knowledge, I would trust this one to be most likely genuine old and quality.
seems it was overlooked, undervalued and rejected,(first time sold no bids, second time around I had money perfect as objects like that seem to be meant for me and usually I have great luck with them.
I actually don't see any other one , that I would rather have than this one. good look to the carving, very happy with it, its got a certain presence to it. it is quite heavy, definitely a chopper.
I would think this one was a user , not made for show, looks it has been well put to the test and earned some working life repairs. I would hope it was made with the native metals, but found some curious partial marks on the blade?
the blade seems to have all the right angles to have been made the old way.
I am hesitant to clean it...
any tips to identify human bone?
Kalimantan or?
age?
clay tempered?
thanks for looking , sorry if too many photos but I like to see all the angles and i think many would agree

[JoeCanada42]

additional photos

[JoeCanada42]

add photos ..

[JoeCanada42]

more photos

[JoeCanada42]

more photo again

[JoeCanada42]

more still

[JoeCanada42]

last of photos

[JoeCanada42]

...in a YouTube video I heard mention of old Mandau's made with Dutch wagon springs, anyways.. , while meditating about the Marking on the blade I had a thought... did I stumble into a V.O.C. ???

[milandro]

your Mandau appears to be old, whether that may also lead to the conclusion that it is an antique I don't know.

The VOC was disbanded in 1798. I think it is extremely unlikely that this Punched C belongs to a VOC designations, which are , to my knowledge, incisions made with a chisel.

[JoeCanada42]

When I rotate it and look closely The letter Resembles more
G.
and a few spaces ahead of it I see the remains of "S" or a number " 3?, 5?"

Perhaps the " G. " could be for Galle Ceylon

[milandro]

I suppose this blade could be certainly cleaned of its rust without necessarily detract from its age and show more of its markings. I doubt that there will be any positive ID from its origin even after that has happened (and something should be done to preserve the blade since there appears to be active rust on its surface)

Anyway the markings appear to be showing a western influence either in the steel or the forge. A piece entirely forged with Dayak material wouldn't have this kind of markings. The piece MAY be from the '20 but I doubt is as old as you have been told.

[JoeCanada42]

the G

perhaps, certainly its got a European touch. but why would a European put that there in the 20's? , I'm leaning more towards colonial trade markings

[JoeCanada42]

Originally Posted by milandro

A piece entirely forged with Dayak material wouldn't have this kind of markings. .

I wouldn't be to Shure about that.., maybe it was entirely forged by a Dayak, then acquired by a European or company, and had the identifying mark or initials put on after.

[milandro]

because earlier markings are not punched but chiseled and because of the lettertype used it looks , to me , something of the beginning od the 20th century

One can hypothesise any kind of thing but the reality is that without any safe and documented provenance they stay hypothesis

This, to my eye, is a pice made either with a piece of western steel or by a western smith which was repurposed to make this Mandau.

Even pieces made on Tjikeroeh (where lots of stuff was forged , in any sense of this verb.....) are showing the dates and other markings chiseled (as late as the '30)

[milandro]

another thing, this hilt appears to be antler not bone (human or otherwise)

[JoeCanada42]

fair enough but why put it there in the early 20c?

I don't know enough about the font type to say its definitely not older font

I do see the older VOC are carved but I don't think that its impossible either for someone to have stamps circa 1800,

for me this is not valid to rule out the possibility of it being older .

[JoeCanada42]

antler thanks, and thanks for the discourse so far,

I read for the best Dayak blades the purchaser would pay a native 10x the initial purchase cost to have the sword used for up to a year to test its quality, and that on these good native blades the beveled concave edge was sanded down by hand... it looks like that's what I got, not a forged or grinded down shape.
also the curve to the blade I was hoping is something the happened when tempered the old fashion way.

[JoeCanada42]

hmm I did research human bone vs animal bone and saw that human is more porous ( one side of mine looked "porous"), I neglected to research bone compared to antler, I will research it.
I was aware antler was more common for these including the older ones.

[werecow]

I recently saw a mandau with H.S. stamped into it in similar manner. All it said was early 20th century. Unfortunately I can't post pictures since it is still on sale.

[Sajen]

Hello Joe,

May I ask if the blade has a concave/convex profile?

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Joe,

May I ask if the blade has a concave/convex profile?

Regards,
Detlef

As to Detlef's question here, some might argue, but from my understanding a mandau has a convex/concave blade. This blade does not. So for my money this is not really a mandau. While it does have some age, i don't think i would place it much older than early 20th century. It's hard to say more about the blade with a good cleaning to remove all that dirt and rust. This could be a European blade that was adapted. It has some odd features i have not seen on this type of sword before.
What i can say without a doubt is that there is no way this is a VOC blade. Cleaning the blade might help reveal what is actually stamped into the steel, but i seriously doubt it is VOC.

[Sajen]

Agree with David, when it has indeed not a convex/concave blade it isn't a mandau!

Regards,
Detlef

[kai]

Hello Joe,

Originally Posted by David

As to Detlef's question here, some might argue, but from my understanding a mandau has a convex/concave blade. This blade does not.

From the pics, I'm not sure yet - please confirm, Joe!

The concave side can be (almost) flat, too: It's more that the other side does exhibit a clearly convex profile...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Joe,

I can't read the metal due to the rust and partial cleaning - I agree that at least a gentle, even cleaning with fine steel wool and lots of elbow grease will be preferable.

As mentioned, this certainly isn't a VOC blade: Those were European blades, never local styles. (And you can't get a broad cleaver out of a slender sword/sabre.) Anyway, this font will never fly as VOC. Moreover, lots of Indo blades received false VOC marks - much like many European marks got copied by the competition!

I also doubt this blade is as old as claimed: Especially the base of the blade is not typical and also the tip seems a bit odd, even for a possibly worn blade. While some later blades have European letters on them, this certainly is not a traditional feature. Some earlier blades also got crafted from imported steel and blanks that didn't got fully reforged by the bladesmiths may show remnants of European lettering; in this case the lettering is crisp and seems to be aligned well with the back of the blade which is pointing towards very limited changes in shape.

The English (Wilkinson?) did supply blades in local styles. Not sure about mandau though - this might be worth following up on!

The scabbard isn't terribly old either (the rattan bands seem to show some age though).

All in all and based on the currently available pics, I'd guess this might well originate from the 2nd half of 20th c.

Regards,
Kai

[JoeCanada42]

Werecrow, that may be a very good piece of evidence I hope you will keep us updated, maybe it would be ok to share just the markings and not the blade ...

and yes it is concave convex, I believe I mentioned that, and tried desperately to photo it, these photos should help.

it is less then what appears usually on pieces seen

and for the curve in the spine? not Shure what to call that, like when you quench a straight katana its gets the backwards curve... is that present on older ones?

I realize chances of VOC is rare and unlikely, but its still got some mystery ...
i was thinking Galle ceylon was still in operation at the time, and perhaps when they went out of buisness the new owners marked the old stock ..

[JoeCanada42]

bit more detailed

[werecow]

I don't know if it'll help much but I've cropped the picture to just the stamped letters on the mandau and some file marks that may or may not tell the experts something about the origins. In any case, the font was what the one under discussion reminded me of (although it seems to be narrower on yours).

I hope I can say that it is a very typical blade profile with otherwise no embellishments that I could see (i.e. no curly cutout decorations, engravings or brass or silver inlays, but with a nicely carved antler grip and some decorative panels on the scabbard).

If the picture is not allowed I shall willingly place my head upon the digital chopping block.

[werecow]

Also it may be nothing but the unusual little "ricasso" area at the base of the blade reminds me somewhat of those on klewang blades and some Tjikeroeh swords.

[kai]

Yes, this stepped ricasso was one of the features I was referring to.

BTW, any chance that the tang got welded to the blade, Joe?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Joe,

yes it is concave convex, I believe I mentioned that, and tried desperately to photo it, these photos should help.

I'm not sure these pics really help...

You realise that we're speaking of the cross-section of the blade? (There shouldn't be any bend along the long blade axis.)

BTW, the final curvature of the blade (back) depends obviously not only on the quenching but also on the initial configuration. A good blade smith takes this into account to obtain the intended final shape. Many mandau have a pretty straight edge while there are also quite a few with fairly curved blades.

Regards,
Kai