Sword fragment - opinions

[AHorsa]

dear all,

I need to have your opinions on this piece concerning authenticity.
the dimensions are: total length 33 cm, pommel across 6 cm, cross guard 19 cm long. the cross guard is slightly decorated at its ends.

Would be great if you can give me some ideas!

thanks and best regards
andreas

[Helleri]

I notice that the fuller extends a bit down onto the tang. The grain is tight, fine and wave like. The Tang is tapered enough to end in being peened. Can you get a picture of the end of the pommel?

[ulfberth]

Hi Andreas,

Im sure this is an Original, it looks that it has been chemically cleaned before and now it has rusted again.

kind regards

Ulfberth

[AHorsa]

Thanks for the infos! Sounds good.
Will post images of the pommel the next days.
Any opinion on the age and geographical classification of the sword?

Best regards
Andreas

[Helleri]

It seems to be (from whats left of it) very inline with the dimensions, form and features of an arming sword. And if it were an arming sword and European (that it could be is speculative). You might want to use Oakshott typology to help classify it. I may be wrong but that looks like a type H pommel and type 11 guard. I don't think the blade itself could be fairly categorized.

[stekemest]

Im sure this is an Original, it looks that it has been chemically cleaned before and now it has rusted again.

I completely agree. It is very likely an original, but the surface has been badly damaged, probably by electrolysis or some sort of acid.

[AHorsa]

thanks for the replies, stekemest and helleri. will have some investigation in this direction.
here are some pics of the end of the pommel. the little pin / rivet is missing, probably broken off or rusted away.

best regards
andreas

[stekemest]

The new pictures convince me it is an original. Congratulations.

[AHorsa]

Dear all,

after this sword fragment did find its way back to me yesterday, I´d love to find out more about its age and geographic background. Any opinions warmly appreciated.

To complete the dimensions: The blade is 43mm wide.

Kind regards
Andreas

[Will M]

The break in the blade appears to have been done under stress and not from corrosion, battle damage? How will you display it, in a block of clear plexiglass or driftwood or? I find the partial broken blade interesting.

[Reventlov]

Hi Andreas,

The typology of your sword (type H/I disk pommel, type 2 cross) is very similar to a family with some famous members, like the swords from the River Witham and Whittlesea Mere, which have elaborate inscriptions. Examples are widely scattered around Europe, and I would guess their age overall as around 1200-1250.

While looking in my files for some examples to share, I think I have actually stumbled upon your sword itself! It was found in Slovakia, in 1971. I will copy below the description published in Aleksic's Swords from Southeastern Europe. Notice that the length corresponds to your measurement. More information and the illustration are in a recent thesis, Chladné zbrane 10. – 16. storočia pochádzajúce z rieky Váh, by Michal Labuda.

54. Dead backwater of r. Váh, site Pasínek, near Šoporňa, western Slovakia, chance find. Type: I, ?, 2.
L= 33.4*; BL= 15.7*; HL= 18.2; CL= 18.7; BW= 4.5; PH= 5.5; PW= 6; TL= 11.5. Dat.: around 2/2
XIII – beg.of XIV c. Lit.: Katkin 1996, 106.

Best regards,
Mark

[AHorsa]

Originally Posted by Reventlov

Hi Andreas,

The typology of your sword (type H/I disk pommel, type 2 cross) is very similar to a family with some famous members, like the swords from the River Witham and Whittlesea Mere, which have elaborate inscriptions. Examples are widely scattered around Europe, and I would guess their age overall as around 1200-1250.

While looking in my files for some examples to share, I think I have actually stumbled upon your sword itself! It was found in Slovakia, in 1971. I will copy below the description published in Aleksic's Swords from Southeastern Europe. Notice that the length corresponds to your measurement. More information and the illustration are in a recent thesis, Chladné zbrane 10. – 16. storočia pochádzajúce z rieky Váh, by Michal Labuda.

54. Dead backwater of r. Váh, site Pasínek, near Šoporňa, western Slovakia, chance find. Type: I, ?, 2.
L= 33.4*; BL= 15.7*; HL= 18.2; CL= 18.7; BW= 4.5; PH= 5.5; PW= 6; TL= 11.5. Dat.: around 2/2
XIII – beg.of XIV c. Lit.: Katkin 1996, 106.

Best regards,
Mark

Woooooow Mark!! You are kiddding me. How cool is that! Thank you very much mate!

@Will: Yes, it is definetely broken and not rusted away. I guess battle damaged. I was planning to put it on an acryl stand, but now thinking about putting it into a wooden frame on the wall.

Best regards
Andreas

[Lee]

Nothing is better than having a publicly published picture from before the current plague of forgeries as provenance and to also know from where the example originated. Good work Reventlov! The irregular broken end is, as has been said before above, absolutely characteristic of a fracture from use.

Below is an image of another broken sword of similar age and form showing a similar fracture break.

[Will M]

A frame can work for this but you only see one side and becomes two dimensional. I like open display having three dimensions however the choice is yours and it will be great to see the results. I would remove the recent corrosion then coat the sword in a rust stabilizer that tends to darken the iron.
It makes for a pleasing finish. Iron and steel were valuable and I can only imagine it's rare to find a damaged sword.

[Reventlov]

You are welcome, and thank you Lee. Labuda's thesis can be downloaded here, there is a little discussion of the sword and the circumstances of its finding, but text is all in Slovakian:

https://is.muni.cz/th/aviae/

[AHorsa]

Originally Posted by Will M

A frame can work for this but you only see one side and becomes two dimensional. I like open display having three dimensions however the choice is yours and it will be great to see the results. I would remove the recent corrosion then coat the sword in a rust stabilizer that tends to darken the iron.
It makes for a pleasing finish. Iron and steel were valuable and I can only imagine it's rare to find a damaged sword.

Of course you are right regerading the frame / stand. On the other hand: also on a stand one can only see one side. Maybe I´ll do both and change from time to time I will show you images, once it is done.

The corrusion seems different on the images. It is old rust / patina, which was partly remvoved. There is no new rust, even if it appears so on the images.

@ Lee: Thank you for your example. Can you tell what is written on the blade?

Kind regards
Andreas

[Lee]

Originally Posted by AHorsa

Can you tell what is written on the blade?

It is an iron inlaid, typically misspelt, "In nomine Domini" without spaces and between crosses potent.

[AHorsa]

Originally Posted by Lee

It is an iron inlaid, typically misspelt, "In nomine Domini" without spaces and between crosses potent.

Thank you, Lee!

I assume, that the fragment was,t cleaned in 1996, when Katkin did the drawin from #11. This would explain, why the detail of the quillon stepped in three parts wasn´t mentioned. I browsed many pictures of swords but couldn´t find an example with a similar parrier rod / quillons. Does anyone have an example of such?

Thanks and kind regards
Andreas

[AHorsa]

Here´s a picture of the sword with its acryl stand.

Kind regards
Andreas

[Merenti]

looks very good! some museums can take an example.

[AHorsa]

Thank you, mate!

[Reventlov]

Originally Posted by AHorsa

I browsed many pictures of swords but couldn´t find an example with a similar parrier rod / quillons. Does anyone have an example of such?

I could only find one close example, from Romania, in the Szekely National Museum. There is also a more well-known sword from Sweden that has a similar detail, but in the middle of the quillon and not at the tip.

https://www.albion-swords.com/swords...spirations.htm

PS. Display looks great!

[AHorsa]

Mark, thank you so much again!
Is there a date for the Romanian sword?

Kind regards
Andreas

[Reventlov]

I think the museum and publications have only dated it as 14th century. I would guess earlier in the century rather than later. Picture is from the article "Középkorikardok a Székely Nemzeti Múzeum gyűjteményeiben".

[AHorsa]

Originally Posted by Reventlov

I think the museum and publications have only dated it as 14th century. I would guess earlier in the century rather than later. Picture is from the article "Középkorikardok a Székely Nemzeti Múzeum gyűjteményeiben".

Thank you very much!

[Teisani]

It looks a bit like a few swords found in Transylvania:

1 - inv. 2874 at the Muzeul Judeţean Mureş (sword nr. 4) https://www.medievistica.ro/texte/ar...alan.htm#_ftn8

2 - inv. 3221 at the Muzeul Banatului - TIMIȘOARA http://clasate.cimec.ro/Detaliu.asp?...113EC1A12E6EF7 (higher res. https://mnab.ro/wp-content/uploads/2...afia-nr.-2.jpg)

3 - inv. M 3876 Hamba sword http://clasate.cimec.ro/Detaliu_en.a...B023C9CB1E1CF9 A more detailed description is here (page 95): https://www.academia.edu/10501840/Sp...iu_2007_ed_II_

4 - inv. 238 at Muzeul Național Secuiesc - SFÂNTU GHEORGHE http://clasate.cimec.ro/Detaliu.asp?...DA7DE866F82BDE

5 - inv. 237 at Muzeul Național Secuiesc - SFÂNTU GHEORGHE http://clasate.cimec.ro/Detaliu.asp?...61DACF386539D6

Hamba sword - the sword kept at the Brukenthal Museum under inventory number M. 3876, (Pl. 42-a) and discovered near Hamba (Sibiu county) is very similar to the one from Alba Iulia, and much better preserved. The total length of the piece is 1336 mm, and that of the blade 1112 mm. The edges gently converge to a sharp point, making the blade width decrease from 53 mm below the guard to 32 mm at the end of the grooves. These frets are 780mm long and have a maximum width of 17mm under the guard, also extending 23mm on the handle. In the radiographic analysis of this piece, an inscription could be observed in the median grooves, on each side of the blade, which could not be preserved for technical reasons. According to historians Gustav Gundisch and Zsigmond Jako, quoted by Martin Rill, it would be an inscription in Latin capitals dating to the second half of the 11th century or the first half of the 14th century. The handle bar measures 164mm in length and tapers from 34mm at the guard to 12mm at the knob entry. The guard measures 203 mm in length and is straight, rectangular in profile in the central part and circular towards the flared extremities. The discoid button has a maximum diameter of 53 mm and a thickness of 32 mm. It can be deduced from the shape and dimensions of the component parts of the swords from Alba Iulia and Hamba, that we are dealing with the same type of sword, which we call type. Vlllb, but with a slightly longer blade and equipped with a handle for one and a half hands, unlike the pieces from Făgăraş and Timisoara, equipped with handles for one hand. Thus constructed, the swords from Alba Iulia and Hamba lend themselves better to infantry combat, where both hands could be used for strong blows, without the risk of unbalancing the fighter. The pieces included by us in the Vlllb subtype are generally treated by the established typologies according to the shape of the button, which is why there are some differences in dating. R. E. Oakeshott, integrates such type "I" buttons, dating after the middle of the 13th century and not earlier than 1250. The same author defines the guard with flared ends as style "2", without proposing a date, but the examples given are on swords dated to the 11th century. A. Ruttkay defines the same button shape as the XVII type, exemplifying with a sword from Kalna nad Hronom, with a blade similar to those described above and inscribed, but with a handle for two hands and therefore datable to the 14th century. Due to the number large of such swords and their variety, A. B. Hoffmeyer divides the specimens with discoidal button, compiling three subtypes of the "111" group, respectively 111-a, 111-b and 111-c. The swords described by us above fall into the first two subgroups, exemplified by pieces dated between 1250 and 1350. In representations of figurative art, swords with a discoidal button are found very often, but the most significant example for knightly pieces remains the example in the hand to Count Eckehard, from the statuary group of donors "Eckehard and Uta" painstakingly made between the years 1255-1260 in the Naumburg Cathedral. In Transylvania, such a sword is rendered more stylized, but easily recognizable, on the oldest dateable medieval epitaph between the years 1320-1330, preserved in the evangelical church in Bistrita 607 (Pl. 43). Consequently, the pieces of type VIII can be broadly dated between the middle of the 13th century and the middle of the 14th century, a chronological space in which subtype Vllla occupies the first part of this interval, while subtype Vlllb extends from the last quarter of the 13th century to the middle of the 14th century. Of course, as already shown in chapter III of this work, the duration of the use of such weapons is difficult to establish. Clear proof of the use of a type VI 11 sword in the countryside, long after it was worn physically and morally by the military elites of the era, is provided by an engraving made by Albrecht Durer in 1495.

[AHorsa]

Very interesting information. Thank you, Teisani!

[shayde78]

For an Albert Durer engraving with a similar hilt being carried by a "peasant", see post number 8 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Albrecht in this thread of his works. I dated it to 1497, but I could have been off a few years (or the previous post in this thread references a different engraving).

Great sword, by the way!

[AHorsa]

Thank you very much for this interesting reference!!