12th or 13th century sword

Marcus den toom · 29th December 2022, 02:20 PM

Ussually swords do not find their way into my collection but this one sparked my interest. Someone more knowledgeable told me it could be dated to the 1150-1250s. Found in the Donauknie.

Total length is 90 cm
Blade is 74,5 cm
Pommel is 41 by 70mm
Guard is 153mm
Blade is 46mm in width
Single fuller runs up to 57cm on the blade

Curious to know more

Jim McDougall · 29th December 2022, 05:57 PM

This is exciting and very interesting! As swords this early seldom ever reach forum pages, as here, I look forward to any responses with particulars.
You say this was found in 'Donauknie' ? May I ask where or what this is? It sounds like a river, and all I could find online was shown as Budapest.

Is there any other information on provenance? I will have to get out Oakeshott and whatever other resources I can locate....have you checked any?

Thank you so much for sharing this, and hopefully more information will be forthcoming, but wondering if you have discovered any benchmark ideas.

Marcus den toom · 29th December 2022, 07:12 PM

Thank you Jim for your reply and exictement in investigating with us

The Donauknie is a bend in the river within the region of Budapest. This used to be a strategic point in the medieval times due to the many river connections to other regions/countries. The English term would be "Danube Bend".

If i were to guess, it is a Oakshot type XII due to the tapered blade form and long fuller.
Personally i don own any reference books but a friend was so kind to show me these sources for the pommel shape. It would date the sword to 1150 up to 1250 (?)

Jim McDougall · 29th December 2022, 10:17 PM

I would agree on the XXII classification,
Oakeshott (1960, p.202) notes, "...after 1100, swords were alike-though in infinite variety".
Still efforts are made at designating some sort of categorical designations.

On p.206, Oakeshott notes on of these type XII c.1265 to a figure who was a benefactor of Naumburg Cathedral with a 'peaked' type pommel of similar form and notes further that nearly identical hilt found in Hungary.
It is also mentioned that this type (XII) are noted in good number in the Maciejowski Bible of c. 1250 (now held in Pierpont-Morgan library in N.Y.).

The cross is apparently not really a viable element of identification, but the blade and pommels seem most tenable.

This pommel and blade seem to best align with German war swords of this period 12th-13th c. and the pommel (Oakeshott type E p.224; Geibig 1991, type #19) noting probable German pref.).

It seems that swords in these river or lake finds, as typically not near bridges etc. suggest, according to Oakeshott, to have been result of the ritual type cases (as in Arthurian legend, 'Lady in the Lake' ) and were apparently thrown in as a kind of offering or invocation. It would be interesting to look more into the intents and meanings of these kinds of 'offerings'.

Very much looking forward to the input from those here well versed in these areas of arms study.

Reventlov · 2nd January 2023, 01:24 AM

Thank you for sharing this interesting find!

In my opinion, the pommel can be classified as Oakeshott's sub-type E1, a late variant of the old brazil-nut form, that can be seen in Naumburg as mentioned by Jim. The distribution of this type is mostly in Germany and Eastern Europe, a good reference on this is Aleksic's Swords of Southeastern Europe.

Many examples (especially in the East) can be dated to the 13th century, appearing sometimes with type XIII blades, sometimes with multiple fullers. Not the case here, but the grip seems proportionally quite long, which is more likely a later feature rather than earlier.

Here are two of the most similar examples I could find, with the flattened top and slightly concave sides, from Romania and Moravia.

Teisani · 2nd January 2023, 11:58 AM

Looks a bit like these:

http://clasate.cimec.ro/Detaliu.asp?...075BEB0E4B5AF4

http://clasate.cimec.ro/Detaliu.asp?...AFDA7495D1E5F1

cornelistromp · 2nd January 2023, 01:13 PM

fe sword in the deadly contest between Joab’s and Abner’s
men Morgan/Maciejowski Bible.

29th December 2022, 07:12 PM	#3
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	Thank you Jim for your reply and exictement in investigating with us The Donauknie is a bend in the river within the region of Budapest. This used to be a strategic point in the medieval times due to the many river connections to other regions/countries. The English term would be "Danube Bend". If i were to guess, it is a Oakshot type XII due to the tapered blade form and long fuller. Personally i don own any reference books but a friend was so kind to show me these sources for the pommel shape. It would date the sword to 1150 up to 1250 (?) Attached Images

2nd January 2023, 01:24 AM	#5
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 132	Thank you for sharing this interesting find! In my opinion, the pommel can be classified as Oakeshott's sub-type E1, a late variant of the old brazil-nut form, that can be seen in Naumburg as mentioned by Jim. The distribution of this type is mostly in Germany and Eastern Europe, a good reference on this is Aleksic's Swords of Southeastern Europe. Many examples (especially in the East) can be dated to the 13th century, appearing sometimes with type XIII blades, sometimes with multiple fullers. Not the case here, but the grip seems proportionally quite long, which is more likely a later feature rather than earlier. Here are two of the most similar examples I could find, with the flattened top and slightly concave sides, from Romania and Moravia. Attached Images

2nd January 2023, 01:13 PM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	fe sword in the deadly contest between Joab’s and Abner’s men Morgan/Maciejowski Bible. Attached Images

29th December 2022, 02:20 PM	#1
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	12th or 13th century sword Ussually swords do not find their way into my collection but this one sparked my interest. Someone more knowledgeable told me it could be dated to the 1150-1250s. Found in the Donauknie. Total length is 90 cm Blade is 74,5 cm Pommel is 41 by 70mm Guard is 153mm Blade is 46mm in width Single fuller runs up to 57cm on the blade Curious to know more Attached Images

29th December 2022, 05:57 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	This is exciting and very interesting! As swords this early seldom ever reach forum pages, as here, I look forward to any responses with particulars. You say this was found in 'Donauknie' ? May I ask where or what this is? It sounds like a river, and all I could find online was shown as Budapest. Is there any other information on provenance? I will have to get out Oakeshott and whatever other resources I can locate....have you checked any? Thank you so much for sharing this, and hopefully more information will be forthcoming, but wondering if you have discovered any benchmark ideas.

29th December 2022, 10:17 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	I would agree on the XXII classification, Oakeshott (1960, p.202) notes, "...after 1100, swords were alike-though in infinite variety". Still efforts are made at designating some sort of categorical designations. On p.206, Oakeshott notes on of these type XII c.1265 to a figure who was a benefactor of Naumburg Cathedral with a 'peaked' type pommel of similar form and notes further that nearly identical hilt found in Hungary. It is also mentioned that this type (XII) are noted in good number in the Maciejowski Bible of c. 1250 (now held in Pierpont-Morgan library in N.Y.). The cross is apparently not really a viable element of identification, but the blade and pommels seem most tenable. This pommel and blade seem to best align with German war swords of this period 12th-13th c. and the pommel (Oakeshott type E p.224; Geibig 1991, type #19) noting probable German pref.). It seems that swords in these river or lake finds, as typically not near bridges etc. suggest, according to Oakeshott, to have been result of the ritual type cases (as in Arthurian legend, 'Lady in the Lake' ) and were apparently thrown in as a kind of offering or invocation. It would be interesting to look more into the intents and meanings of these kinds of 'offerings'. Very much looking forward to the input from those here well versed in these areas of arms study.

2nd January 2023, 11:58 AM	#6
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	Looks a bit like these: http://clasate.cimec.ro/Detaliu.asp?...075BEB0E4B5AF4 http://clasate.cimec.ro/Detaliu.asp?...AFDA7495D1E5F1