Pesh-kabz dating.

[Dmitry]

Greetings,
I saw this piece yesterday, and didn't have a feeling that it was a true antique. The blade has no edge, and no evidence of ever being sharpened. The koftgari looks ok, but I passed on it just the same.
What are your thoughts: old or contemporary?

[Bob A]

I agree with your statements. The blade looks crude, the koftgari has not seen use, and the blade profile seems somewhat unusual.

I'd have passed on it as well.

[Tim Simmons]

Although this appears to be a fairly recent piece it does not mean that it does not belong to a tradition.

[Battara]

I like the koftgari, but yes I have seen several of these on the market, new work from India.

[Dmitry]

I'm glad that my suspicions are shared!
The piece was represented by the seller as a veritable antique, and that he's had it in his possession for several decades, which I didn't believe. Handling it...it just didn't feel "right".
Thank you, all!

[Interested Party]

It looks like Rajasthan to me. The question I have wondered is are many of these old parts mixed with new, or all new with aging to some areas?

[Battara]

I had one of these with Urdu on it the was made in the 1960s - several decades also therefore also.

[mariusgmioc]

Yes, this is indeed of recent production.

Moreover, I do not consider this to be a pesh-kabz as it doesn't have any of the characteristics that define the pesh-kabz. It does neither have the long, sleek blade with a T- spine, nor the typical hilt adapted for under-hand grip.

I would call this knife a zirah-bouk as it has the typical reinforced "armour piercing" tip.

I have seen many modern versions of this type of knife but very, very few that are genuinely antique.

[Battara]

You bring up a good point (every pun intended )

[kronckew]

Definitely indian zirah-bouk-ish, but a bit crude. Grip doesn't look like it is intended for that blade.


Mine, late 20c +/- Zirah Bouk. I bought it because I liked it.

[mariusgmioc]

Yep, this would be a typical zirah-bouk.
And I like it too!

I wonder if any forum member can post some images and information about a genuinely antique, 19th century zirah-bouk?! ��

I am asking because I haven't seen any in all the museums I have visited in India (and I have visited quite a few).

Moreover, from the practical point of view, all the zirah-bouks I have seen, while looking very impressive and attractive, are of almost no practical use whatsoever. The heavily recurved blade does not provide a good and stable transmission of the force to the tip of the knife, and the very thick tip is very badly suited for armour penetration. In fact, these knives because of their thickened tips are worse at armour penetration than pretty much any ordinary khanjar/jambiya or kard.

So, I suspect these knives are mostly a 20th century development for the tourist market.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Yes, this is indeed of recent production.

Moreover, I do not consider this to be a pesh-kabz as it doesn't have any of the characteristics that define the pesh-kabz. It does neither have the long, sleek blade with a T- spine, nor the typical hilt adapted for under-hand grip.

I would call this knife a zirah-bouk as it has the typical reinforced "armour piercing" tip.

I have seen many modern versions of this type of knife but very, very few that are genuinely antique.

It cannot be a pesh kabz: those are single edged.
This one is a crude and recent khanjar-like ( double edged) souvenir with a zirah bouk tip . If it is sharpened, it can be very useful in a midnight bar melee.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Yep, this would be a typical zirah-bouk.
And I like it too!

... the very thick tip is very badly suited for armour penetration. ...

So, I suspect these knives are mostly a 20th century development for the tourist market.

the spike on pole-axes, halberds, Guden tags, and even some rondels, of much the same cross section & shapes, ruined the days of many an armoured knight, not penetrating the armour, but the gaps, throats, eyes, ears, etc. An unarmoured Indian warrior would be very vulnerable, I would think, tho personally I'd rather have a nice sharp bowie.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by kronckew

the spike on pole-axes, halberds, Guden tags, and even some rondels, of much the same cross section & shapes, ruined the days of many an armoured knight, not penetrating the armour, but the gaps, throats, eyes, ears, etc. An unarmoured Indian warrior would be very vulnerable, I would think, tho personally I'd rather have a nice sharp bowie.

A halebard or a pole axe are slightly different types of knives...😜

And I don't think the geometry of a rondel dagger is even remotely similar to that of the zirah-bouk.

But can you find an example of zirah-bouk that is older than 20th century?!

[Nihl]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I wonder if any forum member can post some images and information about a genuinely antique, 19th century zirah-bouk?! ��

I was initially going to reply to this stating that I believe I have, in fact, seen 19th century zirah bouk before, however after reviewing those older examples I know of it seems as though they are all of such nebulous form that it is near impossible to tell 19th century from 20th century versions. Indeed, ultimately, it does not matter much; in either century these were likely made for tourists, as those aforementioned "earlier examples" I know of were neither less decorated nor of a more functional form than those from the 20th century.

Zirah bouk are ultimately though still functional designs. They might not actually be the "bestest armor piercer ever", nor used on the historical battlefield, but they are still far from the zaniest weapon type - made for tourists or not - created and/or used in India. Like Ariel said, if it is sharpened it would still be useful in a bar fight

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

...
And I don't think the geometry of a rondel dagger is even remotely similar to that of the zirah-bouk.

...

Fernando's classy rondel is very spiky, basically a three sided spike optimized for thrusting, presumably thru armour gaps or into un-armoured people, like the weapons I mentioned. Swordfish posted another more zira bouk looking one.


Fernando's Rondel Post


Swordfish's post


Here's an 18/19c zira bouk from the metropolitan museum.

[kai]

Never trust any museum attribution at face value!

What you're looking for is acquisition date (and possibly any earlier documented provenance). Even this needs to be checked since mix-ups do happen.

Anything else needs to be viewed in the light of the expertise of the person proposing any attribution (if relevant for the given piece!).

Looks like a promising older example though. Thanks, Wayne!

Regards,
Kai

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Fernando's classy rondel is very spiky, basically a three sided spike optimized for thrusting, presumably thru armour gaps or into un-armoured people, like the weapons I mentioned. Swordfish posted another more zira bouk looking one.


Fernando's Rondel Post


Swordfish's post


Here's an 18/19c zira bouk from the metropolitan museum.

Thank you very much for the photo!
This is probably the oldest example I have seen. And indeed looks like it could be 19th century. 👍