Foreign Legion in the Sahara

[Jim McDougall]

In recent research on the Tuareg tribes of the Sahara, the thought of the French Foreign Legion has come to mind many times. I recall along with the usual numbers of movies of '30s with military themes such as "Lives of a Bengal Lancer" et al, and there is the much remade "Beau Geste" which is of course where it seems most common interest in the 'Foreign Legion' derives.

While centered on the forms of the Tuareg swords (takouba), I am wondering if there are examples of the French arms used in the late 19th into early years of 20th c. out there in collections. I know that French saber blades were often used in the sabers of Mali, as well as some takouba (termed aljinar if blade is curved).

It seems that the Chassepot rifles as well as Gras (models 1866,1874.1876) were used, and in some cases I have seen examples of the distinctive Mauser broomhandle semi automatic pistol were used. The sword types used I am not sure of.

In the scene in the 1939 remake of "Beau Geste" it seems the bayonet used to stab 'Beau' might have been a Chassepot with the notably curved quillon.

In the attached, the swords are Tuareg tribes' takouba's, the one on the left has what appears to be a European blade of likely French origin (though probably Solingen made) with rebated point as per Tuareg preference. This would be termed 'aljuinar' .While this is from areas of south of Mali, the other more standard form is probably from regions in Niger and northward.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I am wondering if there are examples of the French arms used in the late 19th into early years of 20th c. out there in collections....

Make it as late as end 19th century, Jim .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Make it as late as end 19th century, Jim .

Roger that Fernando!!

[Rick]

Don't forget the ubiquitous MAS 11mm revolver!
Over 300,000 of these were manufactured by St Etienne.
I take mine to the range quite often; it's fun to shoot this antique now that I've found a source for ammo.

[fernando]

How a legionaire would dress and arm in 1900.


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[M ELEY]

I've always been fascinated by these guys! Thanks for starting this thread, Jim! Unfortunately, I've got nothing to offer but my own fasination the the 'Legion'. I always sort of saw them as 'mercs' but I know that term is frowned upon these days.

Cool pistol, Rick! I always found it interesting that so many French and Belgein pinfires and other pistols of this period had the lanyard ring. As I understand it (from a novice of firearms, mind you) that these were attached to a lanyard/piece of cloth or belt and secured to the wrist to prevent accidentally dropping it while on horseback?

That's a great pic, 'Nando! Note the hammer pole camp ax he is carrying (one of which many try to pass off as a boarding ax, BTW-

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks so much guys for getting this rolling!
Rick, I know little on firearms so this is great info for another pistol they likely used.
Fernando, great image of a fully packed legionaire, thank you! Carrying this much stuff must have been tough enough.....but through the desert!!! auughh!

Capn, thanks for joining in, and like you, the 'foreign legion' always rang out in my sojourns into adventure tales of the past. The 'legion' was not actually a mercenary outfit if I understand, but simply a specialized unit of the French army comprised of volunteers from virtually all countries and walks of life. The notions held in popular culture were that a man, regardless of issues he had whether outlaw, bankrupt, or any other element of issue with repute could join, under assumed name etc. and never be questioned. How true that cliche' is remains to be seen, but the idea was, a man could virtually 'disappear'. That was the premise held in the "Beau Geste" genre of 'Legion' stories.

While my interest has thus far been focused on the Legion in the Sahara, they had notable presence elsewhere, such as in Mexico in the 19th c.

[Rick]

Hi Mark,
I believe the lanyard went around the officer's neck as illustrated in this photo of an RCMP officer in dress uniform. Note that the loop goes underneath the epaulette straps.

There used to be a b+w tv show series about The Legion from the fifties that I watched as a kid.
As I recall Buster Crabbe was the lead role.

Yes, I'm old.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Mark,
I believe the lanyard went around the officer's neck as illustrated in this photo of an RCMP officer in dress uniform. Note that the loop goes underneath the epaulette straps.

There used to be a b+w tv show series about The Legion from the fifties that I watched as a kid.
As I recall Buster Crabbe was the lead role.

Yes, I'm old.

OMG Rick!! I had forgotten about that TV series!!! Fantastic!

[Rick]

Et tu, Jim?
This was one of my favorite Saturday morning shows! lol

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

Et tu, Jim?
This was one of my favorite Saturday morning shows! lol

The best thing about collecting stuff is that it takes ya back to those times and all the adventures you dreamed of, but having the 'real thing' in hand all these years later is amazing. I hadnt guessed you and I were in the same age (era) but sure sounds like we are.

[David R]

Some time ago I posted Gras Musketoon on the ethic page, so here is a link to that short conversation. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=gras

[fernando]

How would have been a legionaire and a native infantryman (tirailleur) circa 1840.


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[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I am wondering if there are examples of the French arms used in the late 19th into early years of 20th c. out there in collections. I know that French saber blades were often used in the sabers of Mali, as well as some takouba (termed aljinar if blade is curved).

It seems that the Chassepot rifles as well as Gras (models 1866,1874.1876) were used, and in some cases I have seen examples of the distinctive Mauser broomhandle semi automatic pistol were used. The sword types used I am not sure of.

Jim, in case you still have space in your book mobile, for a few bucks you could acquire this publication; arms (i think only guns) used by the Legion from its begining in 1831 .

https://www.forties-factory.com/libr...377830565.html

[David R]

You might like this... Deserted Legion fort at Tazzougerte at the southern end of the Oued Guir river valley.

[David R]

Not my photo's, from the internet and as far as I know public domain.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David R

Some time ago I posted Gras Musketoon on the ethic page, so here is a link to that short conversation. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=gras

That is an amazing piece David! thank you for sharing it and the link!
It is so interesting that these situations in this desert context with the Tuaregs and other Berber tribes in the Rif have so many similarities to the American wild west. The US soldiers in forts, the American Indian tribes.....and the Indian rifles decorated in the same manner with those brass studs.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, in case you still have space in your book mobile, for a few bucks you could acquire this publication; arms (i think only guns) used by the Legion from its begining in 1831 .

https://www.forties-factory.com/libr...377830565.html

Thank you Fernando for the heads up! I'll check it out. The bookmobile is definitely straining as it seems the stream of incoming books never stops

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks David for the pics of Fort Tazzougerte!
Here are pics of the 1939 movie "Beau Geste" of Wren's Fort Zinderneuf (probably from the city of Zinder in Niger).
Seems like the movie prop guys did a pretty fair job of approximating the 'geste' of it!! sorry.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It is so interesting that these situations in this desert context with the Tuaregs and other Berber tribes in the Rif have so many similarities to the American wild west....

With the due time span, Jim. The fort of Tazzougerte was built in 1926; by the time that airplanes were already flying; in a context where they have been sent to furnish water to the fort by throwing blocks of ice down to its outpost (Z Pechkoff 1926).
So modern is the "Beau Gest" saga. Please (again) try an keep track not beyond the 1900's ... as per forum scope .

[fernando]

The taking of Algerian Constantine (Qusanṭīnah) by the French Legion in 1837.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

With the due time span, Jim. The fort of Tazzougerte was built in 1926; by the time that airplanes were already flying; in a context where they have been sent to furnish water to the fort by throwing blocks of ice down to its outpost (Z Pechkoff 1926).
So modern is the "Beau Gest" saga. Please (again) try an keep track not beyond the 1900's ... as per forum scope .

If I have understood correctly, the French Foreign Legion elected to change the blue coat tailed tunic etc. around 1900 and changed to mustard/khaki. This information is from war gamers who are intent researchers on such things.
The period setting for the book, thus the movie "Beau Geste" was 'before' WWI (as described by reviewers of these), thus may be seen to extend to the fin de siecle terminus post quem.
Though the book was published in 1924, the subject matter as with many contemporary novels concerned events and subjects of late 1800s.
Many weapons which were produced in the 1800s were often regarded as surplus as supplied to volunteer units as well as colonial, thus remained in service after 1900.
Note: the uniforms and weapons seen in the movie, book cover are actually as used by Legion in 1880s (see OP).

The larger number of campaigns, events and circumstances throughout North Africa and most colonial regions of modern countries took place either just prior to WWI, during or into 1920s and 30s. Tribal warfare in Arabia, Africa, Central Asia etc etc was still going on in those periods using weapons which had actually transcended into the century although decades to even centuries old. In the American Revolution, weapons being used were often foreign and from the previous century.

It seems these criteria might be considered in discussion of subjects where an arbitrary boundary might not accurately confine inclusion, if I may suggest that might be the case here.

Fernando thank you for the images of the earlier uniforms which remained in use for such a long period.

[David R]

I think a lot of interesting conversations would suffer, if arbitrary cut off dates were enforced. I do understand the methodology behind this, but we are here to enjoy rich conversations... (and even as a native English speaker I accept that this is a clumsy sentence).

[David R]

Now here is a fun challenge, one of these soldiers is French Foreign legion, who, where, when and which nation issued the photo so it's soldiers knew not to shoot at them. And it's within the cut off date.

[David R]

And another from the same campaign and era.

[midelburgo]

Originally Posted by David R

And another from the same campaign and era.

I would say the boxer uprising in China around 1900. I would say the legionar in the first picture is the one in the middle (because of the length of the bayonet!).

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

...

That's a great pic, 'Nando! Note the hammer pole camp ax he is carrying (one of which many try to pass off as a boarding ax, BTW-

Much more interesting as a FFL arm. Boarding axes are a lot more blasé.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks for these examples, and I am inclined to agree the period is quite likely around 1900.
The French Foreign Legion was not simply an intriguing military entity of what became recognized as an elite status in its exploits and operations in the Sahara desert of Africa, but saw service in many theaters and still exists.

I think it is important to recognize here that the intention of my original post and the objective was to determine and perhaps see examples of French Foreign Legion arms used in the 19th century from its inception in 1831 to the period just about the turn of the century to just after and pre WWI.

My use of the classic novel and movies of "Beau Geste" was to add some of the colorful dimension which took the fame of this unit into exciting history. As I pointed out earlier, although the book and movies were of the 1920s and of course later, the settings for the story were much earlier, into the late 1890s to WWI, the time frame not specified.

What I was looking for is possible examples of arms such as the Chassepot 1866; later modifications including the Gras, and the bayonets used with them. .....ultimately I was hoping for marked examples to recognize these when encountered.
These weapons in this group as well as any pinfire or the M1896 Mauser semi -automatic which was apparently used by French gendarmes are well within the latter 19th century period and more the objective of this thread.

With these kinds of topics where materials and arms used in the earlier period transcend into a period outside the scope of this venue, then that would be seen as 'carry over' in my opinion and kept as necessary perspective.
The case where items, weapons or material that is notably beyond the limits set as scope in this venue and initiated as thread topics is the problem, and that is well understood.

If I may suggest that instance of 'carry over' be allowed in degree for the sake of discussion as long as the content remains just that and is clearly to augment the discussion of the in period material, I hope that will be deemed permissible.

In hopes that we can continue on course with this, I have books coming (of course and hope I can find more. As previously mentioned it seems most of the references on the Foreign Legion focus on more modern weaponry even into present times, which I think has led to the warranted concerns on the thread content here.

The Legion must have marked their weapons, and I need to see if I can find pre 1900 examples of those types I described.

[CutlassCollector]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Much more interesting as a FFL arm. Boarding axes are a lot more blasé.

That's a very hefty looking axe and looks almost like a descendant of the big Napoleonic sapper axes used for fortifications.

I also remember those boyhood films - I may even have read the book!
So great thread, Jim, I don't recall covering the Legion's weapons before and I hope some get posted that can be attributed specifically to the Legion. Do we know if they had their own designated marks?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

That's a very hefty looking axe and looks almost like a descendant of the big Napoleonic sapper axes used for fortifications.

I also remember those boyhood films - I may even have read the book!
So great thread, Jim, I don't recall covering the Legion's weapons before and I hope some get posted that can be attributed specifically to the Legion. Do we know if they had their own designated marks?

Thanks CC! If I recall as a kid, our foreign legion 'uniform' was mostly a ball cap with a towel under it to cover our necks
I really dont know if the Legion had specific unit markings for arms, but presume they did, the flaming grenade seems to have been a primary emblem or badge.
As noted, we can guess by the weapon types (i.e.Chassepot 'needle gun') so 'of the type', but rest remains to be seen.
I think most of the Chasspot and Gras rifles and bayonets fall within the period of the discussion just prior to turn of the century.

Well noted on the axe, and these probably were directly in line with those sappers axes.