Paternosters on blades

[Jim McDougall]

The subject of paternosters, that is dots used to signify the prayers along with rosary beads, being carved into sword blades, is mentioned on occasion in references. However this does not seem common, and one writer in 1905 questioned this as pierced holes in the blade would weaken it for use.

Even Burton (1885) only mentioned such features in passing without any special notice.

Does anyone have examples of blades with such features? , as I have understood some are in the configuration of a cross.

Any references known referring to this as a valid practice with blades?

[fernando]

Jim, have you tried the "SEARCH" button for PATERNOSTER .



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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, have you tried the "SEARCH" button PATERNOSTER

Duh!! Gee, theres a SEARCH button here???????? Wow!

Actually, I thought perhaps I would throw a topic out to see if possibly a discussion might ensue. Things have been pretty quiet around here, and I thought maybe some of the more recent members might have examples or exposure to same.

Its always interesting to see responses on threads 10 yrs + as if they were still current, but an occasional fresh thread on topics that indeed have been around a 'few' years (Im old enough to remember . seems warranted, at least in my thoughts.

[Jim McDougall]

So I tried the SEARCH button under PATERNOSTER, and there were five threads which had the term within the text. In all cases, the term was used in a comparative sense, for example Dutch swords having a petaled floral device which was compared to a paternoster. There were of course no examples showing these pierced or impressed dots on blades on the forum.

In trying to search on Google, the dearth of information is also notable, and the term paternoster is noted in its religious connotation or as a simile using the term. I did find the writer in 1905, as well as Burton 1885 who barely mention the term or device. The term itself has been seen in many references, auction catalogs over the years , passim, however I would be hard pressed to locate these descriptions.

I just find these curiosities and anomalies in the history of the sword intriguing, and apologies if these queries are deemed uninteresting or irrelevant.

[werecow]

There's an old discussion on myarmoury about what sounds like the same topic and so may be of interest, but nothing close to pierced blades there either. The "lines and dots" features shown in that thread are far more subtle and will no doubt be familiar to most people posting here, e.g.:


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by werecow

There's an old discussion on myarmoury about what sounds like the same topic and so may be of interest, but nothing close to pierced blades there either. The "lines and dots" features shown in that thread are far more subtle and will no doubt be familiar to most people posting here, e.g.:

Thank you so much! This is exactly what I was hoping for, some sort of indication of other research into this perplexing question. As can be seen in the discussion (thank you for the link), there were questions toward the motif and decoration on sword blades which lent to perhaps religious invocations. It seems the suggestions of 'rosarial' connection are observed and only at one point is the term 'paternoster' mentioned as an alternative description.

In this 2011 discussion, it reveals what I had been suggesting, that the term paternoster does not seem to have been well known with reference to sword blade features.

I think Burton ("Book of the Sword" 1884) was one of my earliest books as I began this lifelong odyssey in studying the sword, many years ago (60s).
It was here that I first encountered the term, as he described unusual blade features, on p.136:
"...another rare form was the PATERNOSTER blade, fitted with round depressions which enabled the pious to count the number of his vain repetitions even in the dark".

The other reference I found was:
"Inscribed Mottos etc. on Arms and Armor" by Robert Brydell
Glasgow Archaeological Society, Vol.5 #1 (1905) pp.1-22.
" ...in the recent Glasgow exhibition there was an example of what are sometimes called 'paternoster' swords, having crosses perforated in the blade, the supposed purpose of which was to enable the bearer to count his paternosters by running his finger along the groove containing them. It is very doubtful if such swords would ever be relied upon as fighting weapons as the perforation weakens the blade where strength is most required. More frequently such swords had paternoster marks indicated by transverse and vertical rows of small circular hollows punched on the surfaces of the blade near the handle".

As this was 1903-1905, and Burton had written in the 1880s, it would seem that there was some knowledge or awareness of blades of this kind and a term to describe the feature was 'paternoster'. Here I would point out that the use of inscriptions, invocations, acrostics coding phrases etc. and even the curious sigils known as anchors are not the same as 'paternosters' which are entirely holes or depressions arranged in certain configurations.

I have seen rapiers and small swords with blades having a number of holes in the blade, but the only suggestions seem to have to do with 'lightening' the blade.

Thank you again for responding on this! and for the very pertinent discussion aligned with this topic. Hopefully the information we have shared here might bring in other examples to compile on this apparently esoteric type of blade.


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[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

So I tried the SEARCH button under PATERNOSTER, and there were five threads which had the term within the text. In all cases, the term was used in a comparative sense, for example Dutch swords having a petaled floral device which was compared to a paternoster. There were of course no examples showing these pierced or impressed dots on blades on the forum.

In trying to search on Google, the dearth of information is also notable, and the term paternoster is noted in its religious connotation or as a simile using the term. I did find the writer in 1905, as well as Burton 1885 who barely mention the term or device. The term itself has been seen in many references, auction catalogs over the years , passim, however I would be hard pressed to locate these descriptions.

I just find these curiosities and anomalies in the history of the sword intriguing, and apologies if these queries are deemed uninteresting or irrelevant.

Jim, you are right in that this is a tricky subject, as it appears conotated in more than one area. Yet in the threads shown in the SEARCH button, besides the petal device engraved in Dutch and Portuguese blades, there is another one with continuous 'elliptical depressions' on the (my) Dutch silver sword blade, which Jasper assumes as being named paternoster.
The amplitude of the paternoster (rosary) covers since lift (elevator) systems
"The name paternoster (Our Father in Latin) was originally used for the device because the elevator was shaped like a loop and therefore similar to the shape of the rosary".

... up to water elevation mechanisms.


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[Jim McDougall]

It seems those ellipses you mention were deemed 'paternoster' by Jasper as they appeared to answer similar calling to the circular depressions arranged on the so called 'paternoster' blades. Whether these were used in the manner described by Burton (1884) or Brydell (1905) remains to be seen.

On Dutch blades, I recall these occurring often, but not ever seeing them described as 'paternoster'. As you have illustrated, the paternoster term seems to be a known simile for a number of things that bring to mind the Rosary.

On Dutch swords there is often a petaled feature on the quillon which is colloquially referred to as 'kleeblatt' (clover) much in the same manner. I have always regarded this description as referring to the quatrefoil shape often seen in ecclesiastic architecture, again with religious motif being significant in the decoration of arms.

Again, my hopes are to find illustrations of sword blades with the deliberate arrangement of dots on the blade which would respond to the descriptions of the writers I have mentioned.

[Jim McDougall]

Much of the 'lore' of weapons, particularly of course, the sword, is found in the creatively written and often highly embellished works of literature. Without elaborating, here is an example which may apply to our discussion:

"...lay thy hand upon the cross of the sword, say a paternoster over in thy heart, and thou shalt be protected from the mischief of this inquisition".
"Abdalla the Moor and the Spanish Knight: A Romance
of Mexico" (1839, p.34)
Robert Montgomery Bird 1806-1854)
The tale is set in the early 16th century.

We may wonder if this passage, though not describing the same dots or holes but the act of reciting a paternoster on a sword, might have been read or somehow known by Burton and transmitted in his book in 1884. Burton, who was a well known scholar of the sword, seems to have used varying degrees of license in his landmark reference on the history of the sword.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Burton, who was a well known scholar of the sword, seems to have used varying degrees of license in his landmark reference on the history of the sword...

Funny thing, i have just read a blogger out there precisely suggesting that, concerning this subject, Burton was certainly giving wings to his imagination.

I'm inclined to think that Burton ran across this somewhere and invented an explanation to suit himself, though it's possible that the blade could have even been called a "Paternoster blade" before he saw it. A number of things are called "paternoster" because they're seen as analagous to beads on a string, and certainly the illustration shows rows of dots. To a Victorian observer, it may have seemed likely that the word implied some real connection with prayer.
(Courtesy Chris Laning)

On the other hand, i would accept that depressions of a determined type on a sword blade may be regarded by some as paternoster or rosary, just like many other implements bear the same name, though not with an intrinsic religious implication; only by the looks of it.

[Jim McDougall]

As I had noted, the Burton reference was one of my earliest, and as such of course always held a great deal of reverence (?) in my thinking, but after many years and learning, I began to suspect that that alone must not restrict my recognizing newer evidence and thought. Clearly it is obvious that many others have also seen this.

I can think of numerous examples of course, but these are not salient to this discussion. I was just reading through "The Smallsword in England" (Aylward, 1945) and here is an author who was a stickler on detail, as well as describing blade decoration and features remarkably. But throughout his descriptions of the often religious motif and inscriptions , there is no mention of these kinds of feature on blades which might pertain to rosary or paternosters.

While this does not suggest that such practice or decoration did not exist, it does not seem to be part of the broader spectrum of such application on blades.

It does seem that these kinds of observations toward certain features and elements on swords extend into those of other ethnic groups as well, such as beaded strings on the hilts of some Islamic swords which are deemed to represent the Family of the Prophet. In other cases the channels with sliding orbs inserted in blades which are termed 'tears of the wounded' and other such names. In many cases such associations become somewhat fanciful and it is held that their validity is mostly a matter of the perspective of the person observing.
It would seem likely this applies here as well.

Still, to see examples of actual blades with groupings of these dots would be interesting, so the search continues.

[Jim McDougall]

Still searching for more on the 'pasternoster' question. No luck locating images of swords with configurations of dots pierced through blade or simply depressions hollowed out.

In the times of chivalry, the consciousness of religious piety and symbolism was of course profoundly known, and the sword in itself a symbol of this. The paternoster was a key element of this symbolism as well, and it should be noted that the term was used to denote a string of prayer beads in general, and did not apply any association with a particular type of devotion.

It seems then that this term as a simile relating to these beads pertained to any consecutive pattern resembling beads in this manner. While clearly not related to swords, this example uses the term thus,

In 1565 Queen Elizabeth I gave the Isle of Sark (one of the Channel Islands off Normandy) to Helier de Carteret on conditions including placement of 40 men there to defend from the French. When a ship of families from Jersey sent there approached, they were wrecked upon the Pierre de Lecq rocks and all perished, including many children.
In the many years after, passing fishermen would say prayers observing these rocks as they did so, to pray for the children lost.....these rocks then became known as the 'Paternosters' accordingly.

With sword blades, among the ideal circumstances is to have a lighter blade, and it seems that one notion was to pierce the blade with holes through. While it became apparent that this would compromise the strength of the blade, it does seem the practice remained in degree with some artistically or status oriented swords. The more effective manner of lightening was of course channels or fullers.

Whatever the case, it seems likely that in the rather dramatic manner of using the paternoster simile as with the rocks, holes in a blade might be perceived as having to do with prayers and invocations as with a rosary. This may well have remained in sense even with the hollowed designs with holes or patterned depressions.

[fernando]

Jim where did you get that picture; those are the ugliest rocks i have ever seen ..
Amazing, all sources i can find out there under the names rosary or paternoster never refer to sword blades decorations. I have tried Portuguese and Spanish (as i could) sources and found zero results.

Here from the Oxford Universal Dictionary


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[Interested Party]

Interesting. I am looking forward to seeing some examples. I had one blade that was almost a candidate, it was a European blade that had spent time in Indonesia. Sadly, it had only 3 large holes and 4 small ones. I am not convinced they weren't added by an unscrupulous seller at some point. It seems that the dots typically would be in denominations of 10, 50, or 150 representing Psalms plus the gauds or large beads for a Paternostro. A Rosery can have several versions depending on the purpose ordered in "decades." I am attaching a link to a short summary on prayer beads I found that includes a small bibliography. Actually, quite topically enlightening and not linked to a commercial site that I can find.

http://www.paternoster-row.medievalscotland.org/

[Jim McDougall]

Yup Fernando, definitely not postcard material!!!
That is the point, there is no widespread presence of the paternoster term being used in sword nomenclature or terminology, in fact virtually none. It is only in the often unexpected material presented in Burton that this is presented as some sort of known practice or representation.

Interested party, thank you for your observations and good points. The presence of rapier blades with openwork panels in the blade center/fuller suggests that pierced blades were known in degree. These do not however qualify with reference to paternosters. I know there are examples out there with holes or dots, but have yet to find them.

Well noted that if intended to represent actual rosary beads, there would be significant numbers in those large denominations, but the simile comparing the holes is just that, a comparison in colloquial sense much as with the rocks.
To recite prayers accompanied by a physical object (bead or rock) is the intended note, not necessarily the number.

The objective here is to find blade examples with holes (as suggested by the authors I noted, often in transverse and vertical lines of holes. Also to find this term used in sword descriptions and/or referred to in any of the sword literature.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Interested party, thank you for your observations and good points. The presence of rapier blades with openwork panels in the blade center/fuller suggests that pierced blades were known in degree. These do not however qualify with reference to paternosters. I know there are examples out there with holes or dots, but have yet to find them.

Well noted that if intended to represent actual rosary beads, there would be significant numbers in those large denominations, but the simile comparing the holes is just that, a comparison in colloquial sense much as with the rocks.
To recite prayers accompanied by a physical object (bead or rock) is the intended note, not necessarily the number.

The objective here is to find blade examples with holes (as suggested by the authors I noted, often in transverse and vertical lines of holes. Also to find this term used in sword descriptions and/or referred to in any of the sword literature.

There doesn't have to be large numbers. 15 cycles of 10 prayers would give you 150 Paternosters representing the 150 Psalms popular before the Rosary. Kind of reminds me of a Tibetan prayer wheel in concept. Four decades of Ave Marias with 4 gauds would be a Rosary for the dead. Interesting topic as always and an appropriate topic for my Sunday morning coffee.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

There doesn't have to be large numbers. 15 cycles of 10 prayers would give you 150 Paternosters representing the 150 Psalms popular before the Rosary. Kind of reminds me of a Tibetan prayer wheel in concept. Four decades of Ave Marias with 4 gauds would be a Rosary for the dead. Interesting topic as always and an appropriate topic for my Sunday morning coffee.

Thank you for explaining that further, as clearly I am far from well versed in this area and it helps to understand the relative associations of numbers in these matters. Good note on the Tibetan prayer wheel as well, something I have heard of but honestly never thought much on how they were used.

[Jim McDougall]

The term (= seek and ye shall find) is from the mysterious inscription on the green flag (of Florentine soldiers defending Siena in the Battle of Marciano) in the fresco by Vasari.

I found this "The Paternoster Blade" by Chris Laning, in the Paternoster journal Jan. 8, 2008, in which this 'curiosity' which has been piqued in me seems to have affected others as well.
It is noted as a reference in Stone's huge compendium of 1934 describing the paternoster on sword blade phenomenon, and citing Burton (as I have noted) 1884, p.136 as a source.

The author here describes the fallibility of Victorian scholarship and also suggests that Burton, seeming to be the key source to this notion, likely saw this referred to and elaborated accordingly. While the practice of using the blade decoration as described is unlikely , here another Victorian myth was born.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I found this "The Paternoster Blade" by Chris Laning, in the Paternoster journal Jan. 8, 2008, in which this 'curiosity' which has been piqued in me seems to have affected others as well...

... As i have previously quoted Chris Laning's paragraph on the subject in my post #10. Looks like this theme development is still not beyond the only existing Burton's fantasy.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

... As i have previously quoted Chris Laning's paragraph on the subject in my post #10. Looks like this theme development is still not beyond the only existing Burton's fantasy.

My apologies Fernando for this oversight, I had not remembered you cited Laning as the author in your excerpt in that post, and I thought I had found support for that content in my effort. Whatever the case, your position on the well described 'Burton fantasy' is well placed, and properly acknowledged. It seems that the advance of serious study of sword history marches on, and I do appreciate the contributions you have always made sincerely.