Kilij: a strange story

ariel · 10th June 2022, 04:46 PM

Just finished on Czerny's for 2000 euro+ 30% fee+ waiting up to six weeks for export permission, etc.
Looks gorgeous, fully intact ( as per pics, not per actual inspection), dated in gold 1224 H, i.e. 1809-10 Gregorian, starting price 400 euro, estimate price 400-600 euro.
How not to bid?
However, the description is unusual: " made in Arabian Peninsula, end of 19 century", "all gold decorations, including the date applied in modern era".

We see time and again instances of sellers and auctioneers providing spurious and ( frankly) deceitfully-optimistic information about their items.

But this is the first time I see a description of a convincingly antique, gorgeous and highly valuable sword screaming: " this is a modern replica!"

Was the appraiser at Czerny's incompetent? Or did he know something that we could not discern from the pics?

P.S. I decided to play 'possum and did not bid even 500 euro:-)))

werecow · 10th June 2022, 06:06 PM

Well, the date is clearly visible in the pictures and they do list it as 19th century, so perhaps what they're saying is that the gold decorations were re-applied in modern times?

Something about the curvature seems a bit too circular though. Compare to the one listed right next to it:

Decorations aside, that blade shape looks much more typical to me. It is much straighter throughout the first half or so of the blade. And the steel of the one in the OP looks unusually mirror-polished compared to other kilij I've seen - although I'm far from an expert. Could it be a western European made mamluk saber? Although the scabbard fittings do look Ottoman to me.

ariel · 10th June 2022, 09:40 PM

Well, the description clearly dated the whole sword to the END of 19 century, and just as clearly stated that the gold decorations INCLUDING the date were applied in "modern era".

AFAIK, such kilijes were not even militarily used by the end of the 19 century, although as a historicism an individual example might have been produced as a souvenir or for tourist trade. Even then, it would have been a carefully made expensive bauble.

Most suspiciously, Czerny's ( usually not the most forthright seller) placed the estimated worth at 400-600 euros, a patently low price for an early and sumptous kilij in excellent shape.

A mystery....

mariusgmioc · 19th June 2022, 07:17 PM

Most likely Czerny's were correct.

There are minute details in the style of the koftgari, in the material and shape of the blade that point towards a modern replica... not only the decorations.

I have seen some absolutely astonishing replicas made by a Turkish swordsmith that could be easily taken for antiques, and I suspect this is one of his works.

ariel · 19th June 2022, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Most likely Czerny's were correct.

There are minute details in the style of the koftgari, in the material and shape of the blade that point towards a modern replica... not only the decorations.

I have seen some absolutely astonishing replicas made by a Turkish swordsmith that could be easily taken for antiques, and I suspect this is one of his works.

The minute “1224” was put as a date, this kilij ceased to be a replica and became a fake.
i am impressed by the Czerny’s description.

10th June 2022, 04:46 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kilij: a strange story Just finished on Czerny's for 2000 euro+ 30% fee+ waiting up to six weeks for export permission, etc. Looks gorgeous, fully intact ( as per pics, not per actual inspection), dated in gold 1224 H, i.e. 1809-10 Gregorian, starting price 400 euro, estimate price 400-600 euro. How not to bid? However, the description is unusual: " made in Arabian Peninsula, end of 19 century", "all gold decorations, including the date applied in modern era". We see time and again instances of sellers and auctioneers providing spurious and ( frankly) deceitfully-optimistic information about their items. But this is the first time I see a description of a convincingly antique, gorgeous and highly valuable sword screaming: " this is a modern replica!" Was the appraiser at Czerny's incompetent? Or did he know something that we could not discern from the pics? P.S. I decided to play 'possum and did not bid even 500 euro:-))) Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 10th June 2022 at 05:46 PM.

10th June 2022, 06:06 PM	#2
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 498	Well, the date is clearly visible in the pictures and they do list it as 19th century, so perhaps what they're saying is that the gold decorations were re-applied in modern times? Something about the curvature seems a bit too circular though. Compare to the one listed right next to it: Decorations aside, that blade shape looks much more typical to me. It is much straighter throughout the first half or so of the blade. And the steel of the one in the OP looks unusually mirror-polished compared to other kilij I've seen - although I'm far from an expert. Could it be a western European made mamluk saber? Although the scabbard fittings do look Ottoman to me. Last edited by werecow; 10th June 2022 at 06:26 PM.

10th June 2022, 09:40 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, the description clearly dated the whole sword to the END of 19 century, and just as clearly stated that the gold decorations INCLUDING the date were applied in "modern era". AFAIK, such kilijes were not even militarily used by the end of the 19 century, although as a historicism an individual example might have been produced as a souvenir or for tourist trade. Even then, it would have been a carefully made expensive bauble. Most suspiciously, Czerny's ( usually not the most forthright seller) placed the estimated worth at 400-600 euros, a patently low price for an early and sumptous kilij in excellent shape. A mystery.... Last edited by ariel; 10th June 2022 at 09:53 PM.

19th June 2022, 07:17 PM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Most likely Czerny's were correct. There are minute details in the style of the koftgari, in the material and shape of the blade that point towards a modern replica... not only the decorations. I have seen some absolutely astonishing replicas made by a Turkish swordsmith that could be easily taken for antiques, and I suspect this is one of his works.