14th-century samurai sword found in car at Swiss border

fernando · 1st June 2022, 07:18 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...t-swiss-border

werecow · 2nd June 2022, 01:34 AM

€650000.... That's pretty steep!

Does anyone have more information on this sword and what makes it so pricy?

Curious if buyer / seller was someone posting or lurking on this forum.

ariel · 2nd June 2022, 06:56 AM

‘“Routine search”, my foot…
Swiss policemen with their exquisite expertise in Nihonto, “routinely” stopped and searched the car already in Switzerland (!) and immediately recognized that the sword was important and hugely expensive and not a “samauri scimitar “ made in China:-)
The transaction was obviously known in detail by the authorities, the car was marked and the search team was ready. Custom duties and sales taxes were substantial enough to justify the effort.
German and Swiss financial authorities must have good informants.

No way the participants were either members or lurkers on this Forum: we are far too small a fish to have even the smallest chance to get involved with six figure sums:-)

A. G. Maisey · 2nd June 2022, 09:23 AM

Maybe not quite so Ariel.

It is possible to buy a keris for $10 or so, but at the other end of the scale we are definitely into 6 figures in $US.

ariel · 2nd June 2022, 10:33 AM

Alan,
Yes, it is possible to buy a kris or any other stabber-slasher for $10 and sell it for $1,000, but I would venture to guess that no one of the Forum members ever sold or ( especially) bought a six figure USD sword. We are in a different league:-)

A. G. Maisey · 2nd June 2022, 12:24 PM

Ariel, I have never heard of buying a keris for $10 & then selling it for $1000.

But I have heard of & been involved with trade in keris that do sell for 5 & 6 figure US dollars.

US swords I know nothing at all about, most other edged weaponry I know very little about, but the top end of the keris market is something that I have had contact with for quite some time.

Japanese swords & etc I have had some slight contact with, although many years ago, I think I might have moved my last Japanese sword to a new owner about 30 years ago. It is a niche field and I realised that I just did not have either the time nor the intense interest needed to gain even a working knowledge in the area.

But I did have a lot of contact with specialist Japanese dealers and collectors over a lengthy period. Some of the values involved were quite exceptional.

ariel · 2nd June 2022, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

But I have heard of & been involved with trade in keris that do sell for 5 & 6 figure US dollars. .

Alan,
I stand corrected. Congratulations and my hat is off to you. You are a better man than I.

fernando · 2nd June 2022, 01:50 PM

Perhaps because the whole story smells a bit funny, it gives place to legitimate speculations. A couple further details would make it appear more plausible.
The date and price mentioned may be realistic, but do lack support; that certainly not the sudden expertise of the Swiss Customs in the Nihonto universe.
They say they found an invoice; was it the one covering the sword purchase, and was it so detailed as mentioning such explicit elements; what for? Do you send your driver (and his daughter) transport a sword between countries, with such revealing document ? Why not sending no invoice or one describing a (replica) sword made in China (right, Ariel ?).
Definitely something doesn't square ... if i may

Maybe one of these days we hear further from the press on this, other than the initial 'breaking news' article.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd June 2022, 02:18 PM

I thank you for your kind remarks Ariel, no matter how misdirected they might be.

My knowledge is quite concentrated, narrow, of the nature of knowing "more & more about less & less".

I have noted and admired your own extremely broad store of knowledge and have sometimes felt humbled by the depth of your understanding.

If either one of us is better than the other, something I most sincerely doubt, it is you who excel, not I.

gp · 2nd June 2022, 03:11 PM

what suprises me, is that there is no mentioning of any export documents!

Come on...as soon as an item crosses the Swiss border or any non-EU border into the EU or from the EU to a non_EU country, every one knows or should know you need to declare the export/import, unless one willingly tries to break the law...

And no one can say he or she is not aware as since the Brexit ou friends in Albion are terrrrribly hit by this....and so are we when doing bizniz with Albion.

Next to the fact that cusoms worldwide have the knowledge and expertise to value goods, regardless the "invoice" and the value stated.

Regardles what the background of this behaviour is or why, not a very cunning idea I would say ( with courtesy to Baldrick...)

fernando · 2nd June 2022, 04:05 PM

True he (the driver) should know about the Customs submission; but that complicates the story even further. Unless he intended (as instructed by his boss) to pass through with the object hidden somewhere inside the car; and the invoice was found while 'routine' searching and not intentionally shown by him to the Customs people. Still i find more plausible to read in the captured invoice about 'attributed' age and price of the sword an not that a Customs officer has the knowledge to figure out the difference between a regular katana and a high end piece from the XIV century 650.000 € worth ... with the due respect for Customs officials.

gp · 2nd June 2022, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

True he (the driver) should know about the Customs submission; but that complicates the story even further. Unless he intended (as instructed by his boss) to pass through with the object hidden somewhere inside the car; and the invoice was found while 'routine' searching and not intentionally shown by him to the Customs people. Still i find more plausible to read in the captured invoice about 'attributed' age and price of the sword an not that a Customs officer has the knowledge to figure out the difference between a regular katana and a high end piece from the XIV century 650.000 € worth ... with the due respect for Customs officials.

Ofcourse you are correct but the customs systems are set up in such a way that there is a clear process to determine the value.
Within the department’s HQ they have experts in all kind of fields but when it comes down to specific items such as this example, there are in each country qualified and certified specialists or socalled “ sworn/licensed assessors” which are being consulted or used for determination of the actual and real market value of an involved item.

ariel · 2nd June 2022, 08:35 PM

Alan,
I see what might have irritated you. This was just poor phrasing on my part and no sarcasm was intended. Simply I know of no collector/dealer having an experience with six-figure deals. This is a hallmark of reputation and knowledge, and that is why I take my hat off to you.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd June 2022, 12:21 AM

Ariel, I am & I was not in the slightest degree irritated, I was only trying to repay compliment with compliment.

Until we get involved in the upper levels of any market, it can be difficult to come to terms with the values involved, and in the case of keris, we are often dealing with gold, diamonds & other precious materials.

There is about one ons, or 100 grams in a silver Javanese pendok.
A gold pendok the same size will weigh approximately twice this.
Javanese & Balinese gold smiths usually work in 22K gold, not 18K and when we get down to 14K they do not even regard that as gold, it is suasa (swoso).

Today's rate for 22K gold, in Australia, is AUD76.192 per gram

AUD76.192 = US55.35

So, a gold Javanese pendok has a weight of +/- 200grams

US55.35 X 200 = US11070

That's just a Javanese pendok, Balinese pendok are much bigger, now add the gold handle, the diamonds, rubies, emeralds.

We haven't even got to the keris blade, the kinatah, the precious wood or ivory.

We have not yet considered the cost of manufacture, nor have we considered provenance.

Michael German was an English antique arms dealer, in 1967 he published a little booklet that was called "A Guide to Oriental Daggers & Swords", in that booklet he states:-

"--- the fine royal kris which recently fetched the sum of $2940 (one thousand & fifty pounds) at Christies Auction Rooms, and was, in the experience of the writer, the highest price ever realised by an Oriental dagger."

There is a photo of this kris in the booklet.

Over the last 30 years I have seen hilts of the same type that is fitted to this Christies keris, sell at auction for in excess of $50,000 --- that is only the gold hilt I'm talking about, not the complete keris.

The +/-3K for the Christies keris is most certainly just a thing of the past these days, but the fact remains that at the top end of the keris market we do not start to get serious until we're into middling to high 5 figures, and the items with high intrinsic value will nearly always go into 6 figures.

Another fact would also seem to be obvious:- with the value of land in my country, & in many others, as it stands at the present time, dollar figures running into 6 are really not all that impressive when we are thinking in terms of investment.

As I wrote in a previous post, $10 will get you a keris.

However when you get up near the top of the market you might need to take a second mortgage on your house. I actually did this once.

ariel · 3rd June 2022, 01:13 AM

Do you still have the kris you had mentioned in your last paragraph? Seeing it would be exciting.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd June 2022, 02:46 AM

The "second mortgage" was associated with a collection, it included several keris, one with a value of $US30k, one with a value of $US20k, and 16 other keris with values between +/-US500 & +/-US5k.

Some of these have been moved to new owners, I still do have one of the higher level keris and a number of the lower level keris.

I do not ever post photos of my personal keris, nor of keris that I might at any time offer for sale, into this Forum.

1st June 2022, 07:18 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	14th-century samurai sword found in car at Swiss border https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...t-swiss-border

2nd June 2022, 02:18 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	I thank you for your kind remarks Ariel, no matter how misdirected they might be. My knowledge is quite concentrated, narrow, of the nature of knowing "more & more about less & less". I have noted and admired your own extremely broad store of knowledge and have sometimes felt humbled by the depth of your understanding. If either one of us is better than the other, something I most sincerely doubt, it is you who excel, not I. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 3rd June 2022 at 12:26 AM. Reason: grammar

2nd June 2022, 01:34 AM	#2
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 500	€650000.... That's pretty steep! Does anyone have more information on this sword and what makes it so pricy? Curious if buyer / seller was someone posting or lurking on this forum.

2nd June 2022, 06:56 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	‘“Routine search”, my foot… Swiss policemen with their exquisite expertise in Nihonto, “routinely” stopped and searched the car already in Switzerland (!) and immediately recognized that the sword was important and hugely expensive and not a “samauri scimitar “ made in China:-) The transaction was obviously known in detail by the authorities, the car was marked and the search team was ready. Custom duties and sales taxes were substantial enough to justify the effort. German and Swiss financial authorities must have good informants. No way the participants were either members or lurkers on this Forum: we are far too small a fish to have even the smallest chance to get involved with six figure sums:-)

2nd June 2022, 09:23 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	Maybe not quite so Ariel. It is possible to buy a keris for $10 or so, but at the other end of the scale we are definitely into 6 figures in $US.

2nd June 2022, 10:33 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Alan, Yes, it is possible to buy a kris or any other stabber-slasher for $10 and sell it for $1,000, but I would venture to guess that no one of the Forum members ever sold or ( especially) bought a six figure USD sword. We are in a different league:-)

2nd June 2022, 12:24 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	Ariel, I have never heard of buying a keris for $10 & then selling it for $1000. But I have heard of & been involved with trade in keris that do sell for 5 & 6 figure US dollars. US swords I know nothing at all about, most other edged weaponry I know very little about, but the top end of the keris market is something that I have had contact with for quite some time. Japanese swords & etc I have had some slight contact with, although many years ago, I think I might have moved my last Japanese sword to a new owner about 30 years ago. It is a niche field and I realised that I just did not have either the time nor the intense interest needed to gain even a working knowledge in the area. But I did have a lot of contact with specialist Japanese dealers and collectors over a lengthy period. Some of the values involved were quite exceptional.

2nd June 2022, 01:50 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Perhaps because the whole story smells a bit funny, it gives place to legitimate speculations. A couple further details would make it appear more plausible. The date and price mentioned may be realistic, but do lack support; that certainly not the sudden expertise of the Swiss Customs in the Nihonto universe. They say they found an invoice; was it the one covering the sword purchase, and was it so detailed as mentioning such explicit elements; what for? Do you send your driver (and his daughter) transport a sword between countries, with such revealing document ? Why not sending no invoice or one describing a (replica) sword made in China (right, Ariel ?). Definitely something doesn't square ... if i may Maybe one of these days we hear further from the press on this, other than the initial 'breaking news' article.

2nd June 2022, 03:11 PM	#10
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 726	what suprises me, is that there is no mentioning of any export documents! Come on...as soon as an item crosses the Swiss border or any non-EU border into the EU or from the EU to a non_EU country, every one knows or should know you need to declare the export/import, unless one willingly tries to break the law... And no one can say he or she is not aware as since the Brexit ou friends in Albion are terrrrribly hit by this....and so are we when doing bizniz with Albion. Next to the fact that cusoms worldwide have the knowledge and expertise to value goods, regardless the "invoice" and the value stated. Regardles what the background of this behaviour is or why, not a very cunning idea I would say ( with courtesy to Baldrick...)

2nd June 2022, 04:05 PM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	True he (the driver) should know about the Customs submission; but that complicates the story even further. Unless he intended (as instructed by his boss) to pass through with the object hidden somewhere inside the car; and the invoice was found while 'routine' searching and not intentionally shown by him to the Customs people. Still i find more plausible to read in the captured invoice about 'attributed' age and price of the sword an not that a Customs officer has the knowledge to figure out the difference between a regular katana and a high end piece from the XIV century 650.000 € worth ... with the due respect for Customs officials.

2nd June 2022, 08:35 PM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Alan, I see what might have irritated you. This was just poor phrasing on my part and no sarcasm was intended. Simply I know of no collector/dealer having an experience with six-figure deals. This is a hallmark of reputation and knowledge, and that is why I take my hat off to you.

3rd June 2022, 12:21 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	Ariel, I am & I was not in the slightest degree irritated, I was only trying to repay compliment with compliment. Until we get involved in the upper levels of any market, it can be difficult to come to terms with the values involved, and in the case of keris, we are often dealing with gold, diamonds & other precious materials. There is about one ons, or 100 grams in a silver Javanese pendok. A gold pendok the same size will weigh approximately twice this. Javanese & Balinese gold smiths usually work in 22K gold, not 18K and when we get down to 14K they do not even regard that as gold, it is suasa (swoso). Today's rate for 22K gold, in Australia, is AUD76.192 per gram AUD76.192 = US55.35 So, a gold Javanese pendok has a weight of +/- 200grams US55.35 X 200 = US11070 That's just a Javanese pendok, Balinese pendok are much bigger, now add the gold handle, the diamonds, rubies, emeralds. We haven't even got to the keris blade, the kinatah, the precious wood or ivory. We have not yet considered the cost of manufacture, nor have we considered provenance. Michael German was an English antique arms dealer, in 1967 he published a little booklet that was called "A Guide to Oriental Daggers & Swords", in that booklet he states:- "--- the fine royal kris which recently fetched the sum of $2940 (one thousand & fifty pounds) at Christies Auction Rooms, and was, in the experience of the writer, the highest price ever realised by an Oriental dagger." There is a photo of this kris in the booklet. Over the last 30 years I have seen hilts of the same type that is fitted to this Christies keris, sell at auction for in excess of $50,000 --- that is only the gold hilt I'm talking about, not the complete keris. The +/-3K for the Christies keris is most certainly just a thing of the past these days, but the fact remains that at the top end of the keris market we do not start to get serious until we're into middling to high 5 figures, and the items with high intrinsic value will nearly always go into 6 figures. Another fact would also seem to be obvious:- with the value of land in my country, & in many others, as it stands at the present time, dollar figures running into 6 are really not all that impressive when we are thinking in terms of investment. As I wrote in a previous post, $10 will get you a keris. However when you get up near the top of the market you might need to take a second mortgage on your house. I actually did this once.

3rd June 2022, 01:13 AM	#15
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Do you still have the kris you had mentioned in your last paragraph? Seeing it would be exciting.

3rd June 2022, 02:46 AM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	The "second mortgage" was associated with a collection, it included several keris, one with a value of $US30k, one with a value of $US20k, and 16 other keris with values between +/-US500 & +/-US5k. Some of these have been moved to new owners, I still do have one of the higher level keris and a number of the lower level keris. I do not ever post photos of my personal keris, nor of keris that I might at any time offer for sale, into this Forum.