I’ve just found some videos on warangan making and using

[milandro]

despite what anyone may think of the videos and the maker, they remain onde of the few sources of VISUAL information, here is a video on how to understand some of the problems with warangan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK9ISHUNj_w

[A. G. Maisey]

Well, I watched it through.

I do admire this gentleman's persistence, however, to spend all this time and all this work to produce an end result that will be inferior to the normal result produced by a non-commercial process in Central Jawa seems to me to be perhaps a little bit pointless.

Yes, I do accept he has started from nothing and is still in the very early stages of his education, but there are easier, faster & better ways to get a far superior end result to the result that this method produces when it is used by an experienced person.

I am not critical of his efforts, he is doing the best he can with the information & understanding he now has, but the method he is trying to use is one designed for commercial use where a man who does this staining work for a living needs to get a number of blades stained in a limited amount of time and make a profit from the result.

I admire his persistance.

[milandro]

perspectives vary quite a bit.

In most part of the world people don’t have any access to professional “ washers” and although there are many videos in Indonesian language(s) there is almost nothing on line to show the proces, let alone break it down into all its parts, in English.

So, as far as I know, this is and remains the best source for those of us who are not living in Indonesia to get closer to see how this is done.

I don’t want to take anything away from professional washing in Indonesia but the option of shipping items to Indonesia and then having them reshipped to you would greatly increase the coffers content of the couriers and the taxman (In Europe EVERY item , even if yours to begin with, entering the Union would be heavily taxed ( VAT 21%) + if you exceed €150 value there would be also import tax + a flat “ handling through customs charge” charged by any postal sevice or courier.

Most people will not do this, leaving their blades unstained (and unhappy, if one believes that the kris likes to be stained with warangan) it would bring the cost of restoring blades sky high , so seeking an alternative takes no business away from the washers in Indonesia (and by the way there are tons of people in Indonesia selling warangan and realgar on line! They must have customers)

So, looking for a DIY instructional videos takes no money away from the professional in Indonesia, just makes a process available were none is


In the NL I fortunately have someone who washes krises at a reasonable price, but even then, wash a few krises and it really adds up!

I opened this thread for all of the people who will have a go at this method.

There are other methods , especially the Rice water+ Salt and Sulphur method.
But until there are beter or different videos , in English, this remains to only alternative for people living in most part of the world to do this themselves

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by milandro

perspectives vary quite a bit.

In most part of the world people don’t have any access to professional “ washers” and although there are many videos in Indonesian language(s) there is almost nothing on line to show the proces, let alone break it down into all its parts, in English.

So, as far as I know, this is and remains the best source for those of us who are not living in Indonesia to get closer to see how this is done.

I don’t want to take anything away from professional washing in Indonesia but the option of shipping items to Indonesia and then having them reshipped to you would greatly increase the coffers content of the couriers and the taxman (In Europe EVERY item , even if yours to begin with, entering the Union would be heavily taxed ( VAT 21%) + if you exceed €150 value there would be also import tax + a flat “ handling through customs charge” charged by any postal sevice or courier.

Most people will not do this, leaving their blades unstained (and unhappy, if one believes that the kris likes to be stained with warangan) it would bring the cost of restoring blades sky high , so seeking an alternative takes no business away from the washers in Indonesia (and by the way there are tons of people in Indonesia selling warangan and realgar on line! They must have customers)

So, looking for a DIY instructional videos takes no money away from the professional in Indonesia, just makes a process available were none is


In the NL I fortunately have someone who washes krises at a reasonable price, but even then, wash a few krises and it really adds up!

I opened this thread for all of the people who will have a go at this method.

There are other methods , especially the Rice water+ Salt and Sulphur method.
But until there are beter or different videos , in English, this remains to only alternative for people living in most part of the world to do this themselves

My advice from own DIY experience using warangan solution to those who visits this thread was just leave and live with it if your country does not have professional people to help to 'wash' the keris. Alternatively send to your trusted overseas source to have it wash if you will not encounter legal or shipping issue.

[milandro]

I wasn’t suggesting any “ issues “ aside form a hefty charges and taxes to ship out and ship back.

Things are different in the US and EU even UK you pay tax on anything above £20 value

[A. G. Maisey]

The rice water + salt + sulphur method was one that i came across in a book written in colonial times in English. I used it a few times, but only on older blades that had already been stained previously. I doubt that it would work very well on a new blade.

My remarks in post #33 were intended only to prompt interested people to look a little harder for the way in which genuine m'ranggis in Solo and other Central Javanese locations stain blades, the process is absolutely nothing like what is shown in these videos and it does produce a far superior and longer lasting result than the method shown in this video.

Easier, faster, more convenient, cheaper.

There are multiple variations to the common method used by most people, but basically it is this:-

Bring the blade back to absolutely clean white metal. This is vital.

Take enough warangan (realgar) to cover about one square centimeter, enough freshly squeezed & strained lime juice to fill an eggcup, maybe two, the warangan mixed to a creamy paste with a few drops of lime juice, then enough lime juice slowly mixed into that cream to make about an egg cup full of fluid.

Let it sit for a while --- 20 to 30 minutes --- the realgar settles from the solution into the bottom of the container.

Using a soft old toothbrush, brush the fluid continuously into the blade until the blade becomes sticky, repeat, repeat, repeat until the colour in the blade comes up, rinse the blade with clean running water, pat dry with a lint free cloth, dry in sunlight until totally dry.

Repeat the above process until the rinsed blade has the colour desired. This colour depends upon a number of factors, one of which is to understand the colour to be expected depending upon the classification of the blade.

Choose a warm morning with a clear blue sky.

Results can be obtained in various weather conditions but warm & clear blue sky in best.

From my perspective the wizardry shown in these videos is simply extreme and totally uncalled for. There is no "magic bullet", staining is a skill and like all skills it must be learnt, learning takes time & practice, some people learn quicker than others.

It must be understood that not all realgar is equal, and there is no reliable way to differentiate one batch from another except by use.

As I said, I admire the perseverance of the gentleman who produces these videos. But there is an easier & better way.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by milandro

I wasn’t suggesting any “ issues “ aside form a hefty charges and taxes to ship out and ship back.

Things are different in the US and EU even UK you pay tax on anything above £20 value

I understood. For sake of clarification, kindly do not get my intention wrong as my msg. is generally for public and from a different perspective.
Asians sending keris to Indonesia is not expensive but just that the shipper regulations etc.

My msg is in fact intentionally a msg. to everyone in public regardless of locations and it was do not take risk on expensive or good keris especially antique piece because the results are irreversible. It happened to me for my stupidity thinking watching video and it can helps me to get what i 'expected'. And close friends have warned me before but.....

Hope this statement clarifies.

[Marcokeris]

what a great success !!! |

Originally Posted by milandro

despite what anyone may think of the videos and the maker, they remain onde of the few sources of VISUAL information, here is a video on how to understand some of the problems with warangan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK9ISHUNj_w

[milandro]

I would very much welcome other people to make videos, in English, on their (whichever) way to stain krises. As it is, this youtuber and few people who stain blades (not krises ) by means of other methods (also coffee) make up for the only available video resoyrces on line not in Idonesian languages.

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

There are other methods , especially the Rice water+ Salt and Sulphur method.
But until there are beter or different videos , in English, this remains to only alternative for people living in most part of the world to do this themselves

Having a video that is in English and clearly lays out steps for this process is great i suppose...if indeed it is showing us a good method that will yield the best results. I must agree with Alan though that the process this gentleman is showing us may in fact not be the best method available for us to follow and certainly not the simplest. The point is that there are other methods of applying warangan, and that when we talk about "other methods" we don't necessarily mean non-arsenic methods. I have not personally done a great deal of blade staining, but i have had much better success with the brush on method that Alan has laid out in his post #36 than anything this gentleman has showed us so far. All the hoops this guy suggests we jump through to create warangan and his method for applying it are unnecessary and may not yield the best results. So following his methods just because they are clearly laid out in an English speaking video does not make much sense to me.
I will also note a couple of other things. While i am quite aware of the pinching method he uses to help get the warangan into the pores of the blade and that indeed many people who do this in Indonesia do it barehanded, i have a hard time recommending people handle an arsenic solution in this manner. I have not done or found any studies on how this kind of practice might affect the health of mranggi who do this consistently over periods of time, but i believe it is not wise to encourage people to handle it with your bare hands as the video shows. Of course, i realize that a lot of things are done in Indonesia that would not pass muster with OSHA or the Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety (CCOHSA). I have seen countless videos of people smithing shirtless and barefoot without wearing any eye protection. It is just the way of things over there. While i accept that i certain can't advocate for the practice though.
Also, while i realize that the blade should be rinsed with running water when finishing this is obviously going to rinse small amounts of arsenic down your drain. Can't say i can be an advocate for such a thing even in small doses.
I also noted when watching this last video that there appeared to be a relative large area of rust that remained on the pesi of the blade he was working on. Yes, the guy has perseverance that is perhaps admirable, but again, i am not impressed by these videos.

[milandro]

well it is what it s ad until someone will create better ones , as it is, this is the only source of warangan information to the wider audience.

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

well it is what it s ad until someone will create better ones , as it is, this is the only source of warangan information to the wider audience.

No, it is not the only source of warangan information. Information was just provided right here to a different method of applying warangan by Alan. It may be the only source produced in a video that is in English, but information has been passed between humans in other ways long before the invention of video.
And if the information presented in these videos is a method that is neither the easiest or best method for collectors looking to try their hand as an amateur mranggi, then accepting it simply because it is the only thing available in English is not particularly valid in my opinion. Myself and others are being critical of the videos because we find fault in them. Following advice simply because it is the only video you can find available may not be your best course of action.

[milandro]

I’ll rephrase so that the dots are on all the i’s , the only source of video information in English on warangan

When I’ll see more from any other person I’ll report here

[Marcokeris]

the only precaution I took when I was using the warangan was not to smoke.... for obvious reasons I didn't want to touch the filter of the cigarette with my fingers wet with solution .... and it was a real torture for me not to smoke!!

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

the only precaution I took when I was using the warangan was not to smoke.... for obvious reasons I didn't want to touch the filter of the cigarette with my fingers wet with solution .... and it was a real torture for me not to smoke!!

Well, we all have done unsafe things and survived Marco. I know have. LOL!
Your skin is the largest organ of your body and arsenic can indeed be absorbed through the skin. My recommendationis don't do it. Use gloves if you need to come in contact with the solution. But as i stated before, there are mranggi in Java who have no doubt handled these materials barehanded for much of their lives. My policy though is better safe than sorry.

[A. G. Maisey]

As to the danger of handling arsenic.

Here in The Land of Oz (AKA: Australia), people who need to work with arsenic are routinely tested for arsenic levels in their body and appropriate action is taken.

In Jawa I have known a number of people who stain blades, some use the commercial method that the video shows us, or a variation thereof, others use the method I have set forth, or a variation thereof. None have been affected by, nor died of arsenic related diseases, most have died of emphysema or some other tobacco related disease.

Yes, there can be no question that arsenic can affect health. It is a possibility that depends upon the level of exposure. In many parts of the world, arsenic used to be used as a medication.

The easy availability of knowledge that has arisen since the proliferation of the internet is very tempting. The making of a video now is common. The big, very big, problem with this internet knowledge is that we need a very strong foundation of real knowledge to differentiate between true knowledge and waffle.

There is one hell of a lot of waffle on the net, and You Tube is a major offender. I sometimes think it is an intentional disinformation campaign to dumb everybody down to a pre-determined level. A tool of societal management.

The method that I have outlined above does work. Results can be improved by using slight variations, variations that I myself use, but that I am not prepared to recommend to others because of the possibility of somebody taking legal action against me.

I stained a lot of blades very successfully before I ever learnt the variations used in Central Jawa.

Some years ago I spent a day or so with a lady who worked in the museum industry, I ran her through the entire process of staining and when we parted she had a very good understanding of the process. My contribution was only a small part of the further research that she carried out. Eventually she produced an academic paper:-

Scroll down to page #19

https://aiccm.org.au/wp-content/uplo...June2007_0.pdf

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

As to the danger of handling arsenic.

Here in The Land of Oz (AKA: Australia), people who need to work with arsenic are routinely tested for arsenic levels in their body and appropriate action is taken.

In Jawa I have known a number of people who stain blades, some use the commercial method that the video shows us, or a variation thereof, others use the method I have set forth, or a variation thereof. None have been affected by, nor died of arsenic related diseases, most have died of emphysema or some other tobacco related disease.

Yes, there can be no question that arsenic can affect health. It is a possibility that depends upon the level of exposure. In many parts of the world, arsenic used to be used as a medication.

The easy availability of knowledge that has arisen since the proliferation of the internet is very tempting. The making of a video now is common. The big, very big, problem with this internet knowledge is that we need a very strong foundation of real knowledge to differentiate between true knowledge and waffle.

There is one hell of a lot of waffle on the net, and You Tube is a major offender. I sometimes think it is an intentional disinformation campaign to dumb everybody down to a pre-determined level. A tool of societal management.

The method that I have outlined above does work. Results can be improved by using slight variations, variations that I myself use, but that I am not prepared to recommend to others because of the possibility of somebody taking legal action against me.

I stained a lot of blades very successfully before I ever learnt the variations used in Central Jawa.

Some years ago I spent a day or so with a lady who worked in the museum industry, I ran her through the entire process of staining and when we parted she had a very good understanding of the process. My contribution was only a small part of the further research that she carried out. Eventually she produced an academic paper:-

Scroll down to page #19

https://aiccm.org.au/wp-content/uplo...June2007_0.pdf

Hi Alan, thanks for the sharing but do you happen to have a local pdf copy?

<Oops, This Page Could Not Be Found!>


I also support what Alan and David had just commented on safety. When i try warangan, I used disposable gloves and mask as i dislike the smell. Safety is essential when handling chemical and many videos do not enforce it. Many newbies might endanger themselves due to blindly following people's videos.

[A. G. Maisey]

I put the link into this thread last night:-

Black stain spreading on keris during vinegar cleaning

I just checked it in that thread a moment ago and it takes you to where you need to be.

I put the same link into our thread here this morning and it doesn't work.

On the safety issue I support it 110% for everybody else, for myself I follow the Jawa/Bali philosophy.

Siwa's got my number, and when its time to move on, I don't have much of a say in the matter.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I put the link into this thread last night:-

Black stain spreading on keris during vinegar cleaning

I just checked it in that thread a moment ago and it takes you to where you need to be.

I put the same link into our thread here this morning and it doesn't work.

On the safety issue I support it 110% for everybody else, for myself I follow the Jawa/Bali philosophy.

Siwa's got my number, and when its time to move on, I don't have much of a say in the matter.

Yes, Alan. Indeed that is odd. I have taken liberty to download and upload here (pdf). I used the link in another msg of yours and the link works fine.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

On the safety issue I support it 110% for everybody else, for myself I follow the Jawa/Bali philosophy.

Siwa's got my number, and when its time to move on, I don't have much of a say in the matter.

I understand this, also 110% and feel very much the same way, though i am not against hedging my bets with Siwa where possible.
Of course i am sure you agree that the problem with videos like these is as Anthony suggests. Newbies see it on the web, they see the materials being handle without too much precaution, and they just assume these things are 100% safe. It's pretty irresponsible really, but there is not much we can do about it beyond stating the warnings here.

[milandro]

these are some new interesting videos from theKonservasi Museum Sonobudoyo from Yogyakarta


https://www.sonobudoyo.com/id/



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s303D47pQ8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cbDXRPDWjI

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

these are some new interesting videos from theKonservasi Museum Sonobudoyo from Yogyakarta.

Thanks André. These are interesting, but i am confused about some of their methods.
In the first video they are cleaning the keris with the hilt attached, which seems very odd to me. I suppose there is a possibility that the hilt had been attached with some kind of adhesive and that they did not want to go through the trouble of removing it. But in that case, i this were mine, i believe i would have wrapped the hilt up as securely as i could in plastic wrap to protect it from the lime juice.
I also find it curious that they go to the trouble in both videos of first peeling the limes before juicing them. Seems like a lot of extra trouble. Is anyone aware of any negative effects if the lime is juiced while still in the rind?
In the second video they work on a naked blade and go to the next step of applying warangan. The first thing i noticed is that they don't bother to clean the blade back to "white", removing ALL the previous warangan, before proceeding. I have always been taught that this is essential to the process in order to get a good stain. Also interesting that after the warangan they apply cream soap. Perhaps this is supposed to help neutralize the acids. I have always used a slurry of baking powder to do that so using soap at this point is foreign to me. While the before and after images of their warangan process is indeed noticeable i have the feeling that a better stain is possible for this keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

Sonobudaya comes up as a risky site, I dumped it.

First youtube, no comment

Second youtube, fair job

both youtubes were pretty abbreviated processes, I doubt that in the hand I would be satisfied with either result, these were just "touch-up" jobs.

the reason for peeling the lime before squeezing is that you can extract more juice from a peeled lime than from an unpeeled lime, especially if one does not own a lemon juicer.

personally, I like to avoid staining an older blade if it is reasonably free of corrosion and the pamor can still be read, often a wash under running warm water with dishwash detergent, and then a WD40 spray will give an acceptable result.

I do not use anything to attempt neutralisation of acids when I do an arsenic stain, I rinse thoroughly under running water & massage with my fingers, I pat dry with a lint free cloth, & I sun dry before oiling.

I do use bicarb slurry when I stain with ferric chloride, but we do not use this on tosanaji.