23rd April 2022, 02:10 PM | #1 |
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Your thoughts on this rapier?
I bid on this rapier today. Alas, I did not win it (probably better for my wallet as I'm still "recovering" from the last sword I bought), but I am nevertheless curious about your comments as I am trying to learn more about rapiers in general.
It was sold as German, circa 1730 but that seems wrong to me (I would have guessed 16th century). The length of the grip gave me some pause as it seems relatively long for a rapier (although I find the proportions aesthetically very pleasing). The markings seem to say "Pedro Dei" or "Pedro Del" on the one side but I'm having a hard time deciphering the other side. Another thing I thought was interesting is the pommel decorations. It looks like a green man face? I've seen a lot of those on mortuary hilt sword guards but not many on rapiers. |
23rd April 2022, 06:12 PM | #2 |
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To me this is a nice authentic rapier circa 1630-1650. Iron cutting was popularly done in Italy (Milan). I saw it too, but it's in poor condition.
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23rd April 2022, 07:37 PM | #3 |
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Why not Spanish; by one of those Toledo smiths ... like PEDRO DEL MONTE .
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23rd April 2022, 07:49 PM | #4 | |
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I thought it might be a reference to Pedro del Monte or even Pedro Hernandez, but there is no last name it seems, or at least I can't make it out. I can't make heads or tails of the other side. Those oval (eye?) shapes do look a little more familiar although I can't remember where I've seen them before - the closest ones were Italian marks I found on a thread on this forum (which I can't seem to find any more now), but they have another line of "lashes" surrounding the "eye". |
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23rd April 2022, 07:58 PM | #5 | |
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But i am only guessing on the name, of course. |
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23rd April 2022, 08:43 PM | #6 |
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There is writing there (3rd picture) but all I've been able to make out is G R ET (or I suppose with a bit of imagination it could be a degraded "FECIT") and I'm not really sure about any of it.
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23rd April 2022, 09:15 PM | #7 |
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23rd April 2022, 11:00 PM | #8 |
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I agree, the condition isn't all that bad, it would have benefited from a reasonable amount of cleaning and ended up looking a lot better than when it left the auction house. The trick is to stop the active corrosion and remove accumulated dirt, while retaining as much of the existing patina as you can. A slow and conservative approach is far better than fast and aggressive, a lot of collectors use inappropriate methods and ruin pieces with overcleaning.
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24th April 2022, 10:07 AM | #9 | |
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PEDRO DE GARAETA ... XVI century.
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"Este hecho se produce especialmente en el caso de los de raiz vasca, como Pedro Lagaretea por Pedro de Garaeta" He is reported to have worked both in Bilbao and Toledo. . |
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24th April 2022, 11:29 AM | #10 |
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What a coincidence, Iam from Leiden and I was bidding on this rapier yesterday afternoon, bought a hunting sword so we can combine shipping :-)
I stopped at a certain point because I was not sure if there was a crack at the quilon near the ricasso block, It may be ok, it was not clear on the photos nevertheless concrats the rapier is beautiful, early and rare. The Rapier is Italian 1540-1560, Norman Type 32, if you have the book have a look at plate 21. there are similar examples in the Met , the wallace collection and stibbert museum. @ Fernando yes I came also to PEDRO DEL.........AGARETA best, jasper Last edited by cornelistromp; 24th April 2022 at 12:21 PM. |
24th April 2022, 12:49 PM | #11 | |
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what is the name of the book? |
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24th April 2022, 02:32 PM | #12 | ||
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Thanks for the reference, that's a pretty close one, as is the one in the Norman book. Which book is the one you posted the screenshot from? But re: Shipping; alas, as noted I did not get the sword, I just wanted to see if I was on the right track with my thinking and to learn a bit more about the engravings / markings. The world of renaissance rapier collecting is a bit daunting for a novice collector so it's good to be able to check whether I'm not just chasing obvious fakes (I half-expected someone here to raise their hand and say something to the effect of "those proportions are completely wrong and it's an antiqued €25 Marto wallhanger from the early 2000s" ). At least this may give me a small amount of confidence the next time around. |
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24th April 2022, 05:14 PM | #13 |
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@werecow
Il museo Stibbert -Boccia book 3 ** @ merenti the rapier and small-sword 1460-1820-Norman and Barne Last edited by cornelistromp; 24th April 2022 at 05:26 PM. |
24th April 2022, 05:55 PM | #14 | |
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. |
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24th April 2022, 08:25 PM | #15 |
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25th April 2022, 11:38 AM | #16 |
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28th April 2022, 05:30 PM | #17 | |
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I mean if one would decide to wait untill a better one come's along that is also for sale and all original like this one , it could be you would need to wait longer than the swords age itself. kind regards Ulfberth |
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23rd May 2022, 07:15 PM | #18 |
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After some carefull cleaning I can confirm it is indeed PEDRO DEL GARAETA.
The condition is good enough for me condsidering its age. More important its complete not missing anything and the blade is still at full lenght, including original gripwire. There are not that many of these around either. kind regards Ulfberth |
24th May 2022, 11:49 AM | #19 |
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Very nice piece ulfberth. Congrats! I should've known someone from this message board got it. Very jealous.
Is that indeed a green man on the pommel? |
24th May 2022, 02:57 PM | #20 |
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Thank you for you'r kind words Werecow !
Yes I believe it is " the green man" although a bit with a brownish black tan. Now that you mention it, I have not seen this type of pommel with the green man on it before. Although it's not an uncommon type of decoration, it appears hilts to and suits of armour from the same period. I did no know there was a collector who collects rapier this period in Leiden either. Here is a better picture taken in daylight, im not a good photographer certainly not with an 80 dollar cam. Kind regards Ulfbert |
24th May 2022, 03:58 PM | #21 | |
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hey Dirk, congratulations on the beautiful rapier. From this point of view it is really a beautiful old and rare piece. Markus |
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24th May 2022, 05:00 PM | #22 |
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Congrats Dirk!
You might try outside pictures. In the shade if the sun is super bright. I'll be happy to edit your pics for you also. Can someone educate us on the history of "the green man"? |
24th May 2022, 08:47 PM | #23 |
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The Green Man is a human face, or sometimes a full figure with leaves for hair and often wrapped in vines and foliage. It's very common in church carvings from the middle ages and a Victorian era author used it as the basis for a theory of hidden pagan cults hiding within the medieval church. The truth is we have no idea what it symbolized to people of that time.
Robert |
25th May 2022, 03:25 AM | #24 |
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By sheer coincidence I was watching this youtube clip and noticed a rapier with an almost identical hilt in the display case:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjDVE06x_A0 |
25th May 2022, 08:34 AM | #25 |
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yes it is the same type of rapier and of the same period in the Metropolitan Museum.
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25th May 2022, 12:30 PM | #26 | ||
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And as it turns out we already met. Microscopic world! |
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25th May 2022, 01:28 PM | #27 |
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hey Dirk, congratulations on the beautiful rapier. From this point of view it is really a beautiful old and rare piece.
Markus |
25th May 2022, 08:53 PM | #28 |
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What a beauty and very nice cleaned!! Congrats also from my site!!
Kind regards Andreas |
26th May 2022, 12:47 PM | #29 |
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Congrats with this rare and beautiful rapier Dirk.
you're right, I don't actually collect rapiers but for this rare one I could make an exception. after seeing your pictures, I regret not bidding further on this rapier. best, Jasper |
27th May 2022, 04:49 PM | #30 |
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Casey , Werecow, Andreas, Markus, Jasper,
Thank you all for your kind words, I have learned that to older the items get, the more forgiving you need to be on condition. Looking back, I was too strict and not being realistic more than once concerning 16th c items, and i sold perfectly fine collection pieces because the condition was no good enough to my taste. Now im older and a bit wiser and won't make that mistake again if i dont have to. Kind regards Ulfberth |
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