Faca de ponte or just a souvenir of Brazil??

[David R]

Another bought online dagger or knife. I much prefer to buy of a table at a fair or market, but circumstances and boredom have driven me to go online, with mixed results!
The pictures were attractive, and the price reasonable with free shipping, so as we say here, "I took a punt", and the pictures did not lie, described as a European Hunting knife, it is in fact the size of one of those gamblers or "ladies" daggers. Comments and opinions welcome.

[David R]

The etched blade.

[kronckew]

shares similarities with my guardless FDP, an advertising give-away from a brazilian tobacco company, PILOTO.

[Fernando K]

Hello
It is a souvenir from Brazil. The blade is stainless, acid etched. As soon as it is sharpened, the blade loses part of the drawing. It is my humble opinion
affectionately

[Gonzoadler]

Hello,

for me, your dagger is simply an old decorative Solingen made dagger. The handle might be looking brazilian and of course it is possible that it was made for the export to Brazil, but such daggers are also relatively common in Germany. I have a similar, but possibly younger one with a naval etching and the inscription "Solingen Rostfrei" on the blade (rostfrei = stainless).

Regards
Robin

[Sajen]

Yes, it is like Robin explained.

[Sajen]

Here another similar example recently sold in Germany.

[David R]

Similar, but not the same! Double edged versus single edged for a start. If mine looked like these Solingen examples, I would be a lot happier .

[RobT]

Hi All,

The belt keeper on David R's example looks Brazilian. AFAIK the Germans don't use that type of belt keeper. On the other hand, David R's sheath is missing the typical FDP flared chape made of a separate piece of leather and the stitching on the back is atypical for a FDP sheath. Still, based on the belt keeper, I would vote for Brazil.

Sincerely,
RobT

[kronckew]

Just lost these two FDPs at an auction this morning. (Didn't try too hard tho)

[Gonzoadler]

I found Solingen made knifes which are very similar to David's piece, sometimes they have the etched inscription "high life" on the blade:

https://texasknives.org/tang-stamps/...lingen-dagger/

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...dagger-knife-+

Some others have the inscription "Henry Kaufmann & Sons", which was a producer in Solingen, too:

https://www.collectorsweekly.com/sto...-dagger-from-b

So I think it is still realistic, that David's knife was also made in Solingen.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by RobT

The belt keeper on David R's example looks Brazilian. AFAIK the Germans don't use that type of belt keeper. On the other hand, David R's sheath is missing the typical FDP flared chape made of a separate piece of leather and the stitching on the back is atypical for a FDP sheath. Still, based on the belt keeper, I would vote for Brazil

Hello Rob,

I would agree with Robins last post, these Solingen knives get exported to South America and the scabbards are made in the local style.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Helleri]

sorry meant this to be a reply to a specific reply and screwed that up.

[Helleri]

Originally Posted by Gonzoadler

Hello,

for me, your dagger is simply an old decorative Solingen made dagger. The handle might be looking brazilian and of course it is possible that it was made for the export to Brazil, but such daggers are also relatively common in Germany. I have a similar, but possibly younger one with a naval etching and the inscription "Solingen Rostfrei" on the blade (rostfrei = stainless).

Regards
Robin

A little hardware FYI to go with this. Snap Fasteners were invented in 1885. However they didn't really enter into mass production or popularity until the patent was purchased by the Prym family 1903 (Longstanding brass manufacturing German family that to this day makes the majority world supply of these. They literally make millions of these a day).

The first runs and later improved design was made of holey brass and copper components and were stitch on. Rivet-on became popular around WWI and one can even see a lot of ruck gear transitioning from clips and buckles to these. However these were initially folding staple rivets. It wasn't until WWII that we see press riveting in snap fasteners. This is also when we start to see nickle plated steel and painted steel versions (A lot of copper based alloys went towards the war effort and many things once made of brass, bronze and copper needed to find replacement material and more efficient manufacturing). We even see that a lot of the WWII ruck gear uses press rivet brass snap fasteners. However contemporary civilian market clothing and apparel is using steel.

So really any steel, press riveted, snap fastener is going to be post WWII. While you'll still see non-military brass today along side steel. And while sew on and even staple on is still made. If you see a press riveted steel snap fastener. You can pretty much guarantee that hardware is no older than say the 1950's.

This of course doesn't necessarily mean anything for a piece that accompanies such hardware. As additional securement can be newly added to old accessories and apparel at any time. However I will say that as a leather worker of 20 years...That leather looks to be bonded with a embossed grain polyurethane top coat. Or in other words "genuine leather". Which is, at least to a leather worker, bottom of the barrel cheap stuff used for mass production. That embossed top coat tends to last (with good care or dark, cool, dry storage) about 8-10 years until it starts flaking.

That is to say the (and I can't air quote this enough) "Leather" used here looks to be very new. Now I could be wrong about the leather. It could be a split leather buff grain of a lower end quality (which is functionally the same thing). But it and the hardware does look very new.

This all just evaluation of the material used for the sheath. I'd be surprised if that sheath was overall any older than 20 years.

[Gonzoadler]

I know that the dagger with the naval etching I have shown here is not very old, I would guess 1970s. A bit earlier or later production is of course possible, too. Stainless steel daggers combined with similar scabbards were produced in Solingen over the whole second half of the 20th century at least. But that is not the question here, the question was about the origin of David's dagger. As far as I know similar pieces were produced in Germany since the early 20th century, of course not with stainless blades at the beginning.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzoadler

I know that the dagger with the naval etching I have shown here is not very old, I would guess 1970s. A bit earlier or later production is of course possible, too. Stainless steel daggers combined with similar scabbards were produced in Solingen over the whole second half of the 20th century at least. But that is not the question here, the question was about the origin of David's dagger. As far as I know similar pieces were produced in Germany since the early 20th century, of course not with stainless blades at the beginning.

... And as we know, items newer than end 19th century, unless in due context, are not within the scope of this European forum .

[Gonzoadler]

Originally Posted by fernando

... And as we know, items newer than end 19th century, unless in due context, are not within the scope of this European forum .

And this was in the context because I wanted to show a similar object made in Solingen as an example!

PS: If you see it that way you can delete this thread because David's dagger isn't a 19th cenrury piece. Rather 1920s to 40s!

[fernando]

No need to get reactive, Gonzoadler. I was quoting you but not only referring to the object you posted in particular; eventually to the whole thread in general.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23414

[David R]

Anyway, in the end I sent it back and got a refund.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by David R

Anyway, in the end I sent it back and got a refund.

Good

[RobT]

[QUOTEI would agree with Robins last post, these Solingen knives get exported to South America and the scabbards are made in the local style.[/QUOTE]

Detlef,
While you may be correct, I think that the economics of the situation make it unlikely. Labor costs in Germany are far higher than those of Brazil so a good knife made in Brazil would cost considerably less to make than a cheap knife made in Germany. Added to that, a large segment of the Brazilian population isn't just poor, it's desperately poor so the only market for an imported German knife would be the middle to upper classes who would want (and could afford) the cachet and status of a quality German product. Those people are unlikely to want a cheap knife of any sort. Due to the aforementioned labor cost discrepancy, local manufacturers would be better positioned to serve the needs of the less well off. Certainly, here in the US (which generally has a higher standard of living than does Brazil), I have not seen cheap German products of any sort for sale. I can see a German manufacturer dumping an inventory of items for which there is no longer a market (eg model 1840 cavalry sabers) but that is not the case with these modern made daggers.
Sincerely,
RobT

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by RobT

[QUOTEI would agree with Robins last post, these Solingen knives get exported to South America and the scabbards are made in the local style.

Detlef,
While you may be correct, I think that the economics of the situation make it unlikely. Labor costs in Germany are far higher than those of Brazil so a good knife made in Brazil would cost considerably less to make than a cheap knife made in Germany. Added to that, a large segment of the Brazilian population isn't just poor, it's desperately poor so the only market for an imported German knife would be the middle to upper classes who would want (and could afford) the cachet and status of a quality German product. Those people are unlikely to want a cheap knife of any sort. Due to the aforementioned labor cost discrepancy, local manufacturers would be better positioned to serve the needs of the less well off. Certainly, here in the US (which generally has a higher standard of living than does Brazil), I have not seen cheap German products of any sort for sale. I can see a German manufacturer dumping an inventory of items for which there is no longer a market (eg model 1840 cavalry sabers) but that is not the case with these modern made daggers.
Sincerely,
RobT[/QUOTE]

Hello Rob,
This is what I read once somewhere else but unfortunately I can't remember where.
See in this context also here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=venezuela

Best regards,
Detlef

[RobT]

Detlef,

The knife you show is clearly of good quality (clean lines, thick spine, quality fittings and hilt, tight construction) and as such, was certainly sold to a more affluent Venezuelan. Your knife also appears to have some age and an early 20th century date doesn't seem to be unlikely, so it is a far cry in both time and quality from the currently made and cheap German knives shown in this thread. My argument isn't against the economic viability of expensive European or US items being sold to the Hispanic upper crust from the mid 19th century to the present (witness all the 50's Yank tanks still chugging along in Cuba). What I find to be economically impossible is the ability to sell cheap European or US products made in the last quarter of the 20th century to present, in Hispaniola. Any such market would be serviced by the Chinese. It is undisputed that, since the 1850s, German import/export firms located in South America provided German (as well as French and US) luxury items for wealthy South Americans. The heyday of these firms appears to have been from the latter half of the 19th through the first quarter of the 20th centuries. I have provided a post card photo of the Van Dissel building in Maracaibo which, judging by the parked cars, appears to have been taken in the 1920s-1930s. The online monograph, Christern & Co. y los comerciantes alemanes de Maracaibo, by E Espínola Benítez · 2006, http://ve.scielo.org (English translation available) which gives a history of the five main German import/export firms in operation at that time clearly shows that the European (and US) goods offered for sale were high end products intended for the well-to-do. Van Dissel, Rode & Co is mentioned in the monograph as one of those main five firms.

Sincerely,
RobT