14th February 2022, 09:22 PM | #1 |
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Dagger for Identification
This is a recent purchase which I have not yet received. These are dealer's pictures, and of course I have no dimensions to share. Obviously it will need cleaning when it arrives. It also appears that the blade is wedged in the hilt using paper.
I am unsure of where this dagger comes from as I've not seen this shape before, and I would welcome any information. I would assume one of the Pacific archipelagos, but which one? Thanks |
14th February 2022, 11:47 PM | #2 |
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Badek
It's a Badek, probably from Sumatra. Classic shape.
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15th February 2022, 12:42 AM | #3 |
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However I have never seen one with a fullered blade like this. Otherwise, I agree with Martino.
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15th February 2022, 06:15 AM | #4 |
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Thanks. I'd never seen one with such an extreme handle, nor with a fullered blade, so hadn't thought of that classification.
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15th February 2022, 06:18 AM | #5 |
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Yes, it has some characteristics of a badik, & I guess we need to call it a badik, but I've never seen even a photo of a badik that looks like this.
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15th February 2022, 01:24 PM | #6 | |
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Quote:
Most badik are meant for punching and come with slender, agile blades. Some of those blades with more pronounced belly have more heft to them and can feel more like a small meat cleaver. Adding a fuller makes sense if the balance needs to be improved. Pretty much all antique badik from Sulawesi sport laminated or even pattern-welded blades (i.e. with pamor). It would be worth checking this example even if it most likely is monosteel. From the craftsmanship and attaching the tang with paper/textile, I'd guess this piece hails from the first half of the 20th century, possibly around WW2. Regards, Kai Last edited by kai; 16th February 2022 at 12:12 AM. |
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15th February 2022, 01:28 PM | #7 | |
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Hello Alan,
Quote:
I have 2 of these coming in - let me try to add pics later. Regards, Kai |
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15th February 2022, 04:43 PM | #8 |
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Kai is correct, a badik from Lompobattang, another example is shown by "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" on p. 351-352.
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15th February 2022, 04:49 PM | #9 |
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Here are my two examples, got them recently, still need to etch them, both are laminated. Blades with fullers seems not uncommon, see my small example.
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15th February 2022, 04:50 PM | #10 |
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That looks like it's been shoddily repaired. If it were something I had in my possession, I'd be tempted to carefully pry that cracked bit off. Remove the blade and wadding. Pour in some hot rosin and reset that tang. Then a little bone glue and watch band pins for the chipped piece of horn. Finish off that handle with a little light sanding and a few coats of lanolin...Looks like a fun project piece really.
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15th February 2022, 04:55 PM | #11 | |
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Quote:
I am with Helleri here, the attachment of the hilt with paper or textile will be a repair. Regards, Detlef |
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15th February 2022, 08:40 PM | #12 |
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Kai & Detlef, gentlemen, the examples shown by Detlef do indeed have an overall appearance similar to the dagger that is the subject of this thread, however, perhaps you & I look at very different things:- to me this dagger of Jerseyman is very, very different to the examples you have shown.
The examples shown are well known and relatively common:- I have had a number of them over the years, and I think I still might have some, but to my eye, they vary strongly from JM's dagger. In fact, I have seen custom made knives produced by makers in USA & Australia that resemble JM's dagger more closely than does the typical Sulawesi badik with the Beer Belly. |
15th February 2022, 11:50 PM | #13 |
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G'day Alan,
Perhaps you could be a bit more specific which differences you feel have the strongest impact in your opinion? Except for the wide fuller already discussed, the other unusual feature would be the choil. OTOH, the other blades seem to be antique and I posit that this blade might well be younger. Anyway, the fittings clearly support a Lompobattang origin... Any alternative suggestions? Regards, Kai |
16th February 2022, 12:05 AM | #14 | |
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Hello Detlef,
Quote:
I was just mentioning it as a supporting indicator for a possible later date. (It certainly doesn't exclude a later period than suggested by me.) Regards, Kai |
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16th February 2022, 12:10 AM | #15 | |
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Hello Detlef,
Quote:
It's this wide fuller which is a bit more unusual IMHO... Regards, Kai |
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16th February 2022, 12:33 AM | #16 |
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Kai, what I said in my initial post was that I have never seen even a photo of badik that looks like this one.
In spite of the photos of Sulawesi badiks that Detlef posted, I still have not seen a photo of a badik that looks like this one. Yes, I agree there is a very approximate, very broad similarity in overall form, but also outstanding significant differences, not only in the blade, but also in the hilt & the scabbard. I'm guessing that the reason I cannot come right out and give you my total agreement with you is that with weaponry that has an agreed standard form, when I see variation from that standard form my mind tells me I'm seeing something different. Possibly the reason for this mindset is my strong background in Javanese keris & weaponry. If it doesn't fit, it is different. I definitely do not have any suggestions in respect of where or when this item under discussion might have originated, and I definitely do not have intention of trying to convince you & Detlef that it is not what you believe it to be. But for me, it is a one off. |
16th February 2022, 09:26 AM | #17 |
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Would love to see the fullered badik is really pamor badik. Since i guess, the origin of the blade might be repurposed from mass produce machetes such as Crocodile (Martindale?) brand that has several fullers..
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16th February 2022, 09:28 AM | #18 | |
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Really nice Macassar Ebony, unfortunately with poor execution....
Quote:
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16th February 2022, 03:44 PM | #19 | |
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Quote:
I see what you mean, starting by the blade, the edge by the one in question is straight, by the by me posted examples belly. And of course the notch. And the spine differs as well. Handle is by the example from JM round at the outer end, by the from me posted examples tapered, also the bend is different. By the scabbard the bulge is very different too. So I have to agree with you, it's a different animal. But why did I think it is from same family? It will be the overall appearance by superficial examination. Regards, Detlef |
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16th February 2022, 04:02 PM | #20 | |
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Quote:
They are still made as functional weapons I guess, I've seen 2006 a Bugis wearing a badik, near Makassar. And I own a fairly recent example, well made but clearly used. Regards, Detlef |
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16th February 2022, 10:50 PM | #21 |
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Detlef, my first post was #5, what I wrote was this:-
"Yes, it has some characteristics of a badik, & I guess we need to call it a badik, but I've never seen even a photo of a badik that looks like this." If others think it is a badik, and I cannot give a better name for it, I'm happy to call it badik. But I'm equally happy to call it a "dagger" or anything else that two or more other people can agree on. |
16th February 2022, 11:45 PM | #22 |
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Jep, still would call it badik and I think it's from Sulawesi. Someone will have had his own understandingo of how a badik has to look.
Regards, Detlef |
20th February 2022, 06:25 PM | #23 | ||
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Hello Alan,
Thanks for your response! Quote:
Please also note that the pics referred to above are far from comprehensive - there is more variation. Moreover, despite badik taking the place of keris in the cultures from SW Sulawesi, they don't seem to have been under similarly strong stylistic regulation by the local ruling classes. While we certainly see some regional styles most likely based on long-standing traditions, these apparently were not enforced by the local elites/palace in the recent centuries. We also see lots of mixing or pieces popping up at distant places, most likely due to the political turmoils, long distance trading and traveling (not to mention the many expat communities across SE Asia). When trying to establish the origin of any piece, differences hardly ever help except to alert oneself to be more cautious with any conclusions. For establishing an origin for anything that doesn't perfectly fit with known examples, we rather have to look for shared similarities, especially those which have a high likelihood to be uniquely based on shared cultural/historic roots:
Quote:
Regards, Kai |
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20th February 2022, 06:34 PM | #24 | |
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Quote:
To me these fullers look too irregular to be remnants of machine-ground fullers as in some machetes. This also seems true for a few other multi-fullered badik blades I saw. Would certainly like to see these blades etched though! Regards, Kai |
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20th February 2022, 06:49 PM | #25 | |
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Hello Detlef,
Quote:
I was not implying that this badik got manufactured without any real use in mind. However, whenever the current tang attachment was chosen, I doubt that any heavy use (neither as tool nor as weapon) was intended. This may point to a later date but does not imply that other badik from the same period were not attached with some local sort of cutler's resin. Regards, Kai |
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21st February 2022, 07:59 AM | #26 |
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Kai, I've noted all your comments, it seems that I have not been particularly clear with my own comments.
I have no issue at all with whatever you or anybody else wishes to call this dagger, I have not offered a different name for it, and I will not offer one, as I have already said, I'll agree with any two people who wish to call it whatever they will. I have no stake in this, I really don't care what this dagger is called. But the fact remains:- if it is to be called a badik, or perhaps somebody might like to call it a kawali, I have never seen a badik/kawali that looks like this dagger. That is all I am saying. No more, no less. Everybody else can draw lines of similarity if they wish, I do not wish. But I'm not prepared to debate the matter. I'm offering an observation, just that. However, there is one small matter that I must disagree with. The badik/kawali does not & did not have the same function for the Bugis people as does & did the keris for the people of Jawa & Bali. It has & had a similar function. Am I splitting hairs? No, not at all, the word "same" does mean the same as the word "similar". |
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