Simple yet beautiful blade; bone (ivory?) hilt; origin unknown

shayde78 · 7th February 2022, 08:45 PM

I recently jumped at the chance to add this lovely little knife. The blade is elegant in its simplicity - 1/4inch spine at the hilt, smooth distal taper, no bevels but a steady wedge ending in a keen edge.

The scabbard with its wire wrapping seems possibly African, but I've yet to see an African blade forged so well. I thought I detected some 'wootziness' in the seller's photos, but not in person. I would place the blade as Persian, perhaps, but without any typical adornments.

This is just a solid blade similar to what I would want as a part of my bushcraft kit. The hilt, is simple, but more elaborate than the blade. I'm very curious to get opinions as to where this may have originated.

Thanks everyone!

Sajen · 7th February 2022, 09:49 PM

I've watched it by ebay, I am nearly sure that it's a dha dagger and I guess that the handle is from ivory. Very nice piece, congrats!

Regards,
Detlef

shayde78 · 9th February 2022, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

I've watched it by ebay, I am nearly sure that it's a dha dagger and I guess that the handle is from ivory. Very nice piece, congrats!

Regards,
Detlef

Thanks, Detlef!
I was surprised I was able to win it. You are absolutely right- it has a distinctly 'dha-esque' look to the scabbard, and the rest feels consistent with a Thai/Southeast Asian origin.
Any thoughts on the type of ivory? Elephant? Marine?

Thanks again!

Rafngard · 9th February 2022, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

Any thoughts on the type of ivory? Elephant? Marine?

I think I can see schreger lines in the 6th picture, so I'd vote Elephant.

Have fun,
Leif

Helleri · 10th February 2022, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rafngard

I think I can see schreger lines in the 6th picture, so I'd vote Elephant.

Have fun,
Leif

On the smooth part of the butt in the 6th picture those definitely look like Schreger lines. Given that's over a very curved surface I wouldn't want to wager a guess at the angle of them from a picture. The only way to tell what species (from such a small piece) would be to measure the angle of their intersections.

But that's not 100% Because the arc of the lines will change the intersection. Arc decreases with size the further out from the core one gets. Not by much. But enough that outer material from the very tip of a small Elephant tusk can look like outer material from the very base of a large walrus tusk.

One can get to about 70% confidence level with angle measuring of Schreger lines. Higher confidence beyond that relies on knowing where and when it came from and what the people that made it would have had likely access to material wise.

Sajen · 10th February 2022, 05:26 PM

By dhas I never have seen other ivory than elephant ivory.

Ian · 11th February 2022, 02:13 PM

There are a few features that lead me to think that this Burmese style knife may be from a little further north. Several groups in NE India utilize similar knives. Some of their blades may be obtained from Burma and, perhaps surprisingly, from HuSa in southern Yunnan. The preference is sometimes for heavier blades, as on this one.

The ivory scales (they have to be elephant ivory), pinned over a full tang, are distinctly not from traditional Burmese, Thai, or Lao sources. The relatively short, narrow tangs of swords and knives from these groups would not accommodate pins such as on the example here. There are, however, examples of hilt scales pinned over full tangs that come from Southern Yunnan.

The sheath does not really resemble traditional mainland SE Asian work, but would fit better with some NE Indian groups, especially the copper wire wrapping. The sheath might post date the manufacture of the knife.

Overall, a bit of a mystery knife having elements of different cultures. Knowing that some of the NE Indian tribal groups traded for knives from the south, I think this piece was used in the north. I would estimate its age as early 20th C, but it could be older depending on use and storage.

Sajen · 11th February 2022, 04:15 PM

After speaking with a very good friend of mine who is an expert on mainland Southeast Asian blades about the knife in question I would agree with Ian, the ferrule and handle pin is unusual too.
And the given origin from Ian seems to be a very good one. The ivory handle could be from an English bread knife my friend assumed.
He says also that it is a rare find!

Regards,
Detlef

shayde78 · 15th February 2022, 02:44 AM

Thank you all for the brilliant insights. I had never given many thoughts to blades from the Burmese region. I love when a new acquisition leads to discovering something new, and I truly appreciate the knowledge shared so generously.

Thanks again!
-Rob

Ian · 15th February 2022, 04:47 AM

Rob,

You found a really nice knife for your first purchase from that area. Watch out--they can be addictive.

Sajen · 15th February 2022, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Watch out--they can be addictive.

Indeed!

DhaDha · 15th February 2022, 08:33 PM

So... The pinned hilt and scabbard are pretty unique by Dha standards. Could this be a Yao knife from Africa?

shayde78 · 26th February 2022, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DhaDha

So... The pinned hilt and scabbard are pretty unique by Dha standards. Could this be a Yao knife from Africa?

Well...you sent me down a rabbit hole! Reading thru threads on here, it seems the origin of the yao knives was never really agreed upon (despite museum designations). I see the similarities to my knife and yours is a good suggestion. However, some features that differ - the Yao knives seem to have a partial tang (my knife has a full tang and slab scales). Also, the 1/4 inch thick spine and meticulously forged blade isn't similar to anything I've ever seen come out of Africa, but I could be wrong.

I love finding items that bring a little mystery to the conversation!

Ian · 26th February 2022, 01:12 PM

Rob,

Several people here could have told you that this knife does not look much like a Yao knife. Yes, there are similarities, but not a whole lot. It's often better, however, and a good habit to get into, to check out suggestions with your own research. The information retention is much better that way, and you get to appreciate the subtleties of the items you are looking at. The conclusions that you reached from your research are correct IMHO.

Regards,

Ian.

7th February 2022, 08:45 PM	#1
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Simple yet beautiful blade; bone (ivory?) hilt; origin unknown I recently jumped at the chance to add this lovely little knife. The blade is elegant in its simplicity - 1/4inch spine at the hilt, smooth distal taper, no bevels but a steady wedge ending in a keen edge. The scabbard with its wire wrapping seems possibly African, but I've yet to see an African blade forged so well. I thought I detected some 'wootziness' in the seller's photos, but not in person. I would place the blade as Persian, perhaps, but without any typical adornments. This is just a solid blade similar to what I would want as a part of my bushcraft kit. The hilt, is simple, but more elaborate than the blade. I'm very curious to get opinions as to where this may have originated. Thanks everyone! Attached Images

7th February 2022, 09:49 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	I've watched it by ebay, I am nearly sure that it's a dha dagger and I guess that the handle is from ivory. Very nice piece, congrats! Regards, Detlef

10th February 2022, 05:26 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	By dhas I never have seen other ivory than elephant ivory.

11th February 2022, 02:13 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	There are a few features that lead me to think that this Burmese style knife may be from a little further north. Several groups in NE India utilize similar knives. Some of their blades may be obtained from Burma and, perhaps surprisingly, from HuSa in southern Yunnan. The preference is sometimes for heavier blades, as on this one. The ivory scales (they have to be elephant ivory), pinned over a full tang, are distinctly not from traditional Burmese, Thai, or Lao sources. The relatively short, narrow tangs of swords and knives from these groups would not accommodate pins such as on the example here. There are, however, examples of hilt scales pinned over full tangs that come from Southern Yunnan. The sheath does not really resemble traditional mainland SE Asian work, but would fit better with some NE Indian groups, especially the copper wire wrapping. The sheath might post date the manufacture of the knife. Overall, a bit of a mystery knife having elements of different cultures. Knowing that some of the NE Indian tribal groups traded for knives from the south, I think this piece was used in the north. I would estimate its age as early 20th C, but it could be older depending on use and storage.

11th February 2022, 04:15 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	After speaking with a very good friend of mine who is an expert on mainland Southeast Asian blades about the knife in question I would agree with Ian, the ferrule and handle pin is unusual too. And the given origin from Ian seems to be a very good one. The ivory handle could be from an English bread knife my friend assumed. He says also that it is a rare find! Regards, Detlef

15th February 2022, 02:44 AM	#9
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Thank you all for the brilliant insights. I had never given many thoughts to blades from the Burmese region. I love when a new acquisition leads to discovering something new, and I truly appreciate the knowledge shared so generously. Thanks again! -Rob

15th February 2022, 04:47 AM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Rob, You found a really nice knife for your first purchase from that area. Watch out--they can be addictive.

15th February 2022, 08:33 PM	#12
DhaDha Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 165	So... The pinned hilt and scabbard are pretty unique by Dha standards. Could this be a Yao knife from Africa?

26th February 2022, 01:12 PM	#14
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Rob, Several people here could have told you that this knife does not look much like a Yao knife. Yes, there are similarities, but not a whole lot. It's often better, however, and a good habit to get into, to check out suggestions with your own research. The information retention is much better that way, and you get to appreciate the subtleties of the items you are looking at. The conclusions that you reached from your research are correct IMHO. Regards, Ian.