My new Palembang kris

milandro · 2nd February 2022, 12:13 PM

I have purchased this kris which I believe is a Palengban keris.

I think this kris has some age and I plan to have it washed in warangan by the person whom I trust with this treatment. Looking at the blade there are some signs of pamor but they are not so clear that one can say what it is at this stage (and perhaps even later). I will be posting, later on, after the treatment some pictures.

De Ukiran appears to be what many may call a Durga hilt ( I have read on this forum of the diverse interpretations about this type of hilt). It has some damage at the base but it must have happened a long time ago.

I was thinking about replacing the hilt with a suitable replacement (any suggestion whether to do it or not). They are not easy to come by in the Netherlands.

Looking at the “ Seluth” (if I may call it so, I don’t know) I don’t know if it was always with this kris or not.

One question is ( and I know it is a difficult one to answer) about the “ stones” , this certainly appears to be a rather humble seluth (or whatever this form is called) but the “ stones” are unusually looking “ real” compared to other examples of “ stones” on de mendaks that I have.

Now this may be glass or quartz but I am not an expert , how would one tell if they are real stones or (dare I say) a low grade diamond? I understand this may be only wishful thinking!

Please tell me your opinions on this, bear in mind that I am just a beginner in the kris world and I am still just trying to find my way around it.

Jean · 2nd February 2022, 02:15 PM

This keris originates from South Sumatra (Palembang, Lampung, or Bengkulu) and the hilt in Durga or Puteri Malu (shy princess) style is suitable. The selut/ pendokok is probably not original and I don't know about the stones materials.
The blade seems to have an indistinct pamor pattern (sanak) so I don't know how it will look like after warangan treatment.
Regards

Jean · 2nd February 2022, 02:20 PM

Similar hilts with suitable seluts.

David · 2nd February 2022, 02:46 PM

While i have heard some people suggest this hilt could be Durga i see absolutely no evidence or obvious indication that it represents that goddess. Frankly i don't even see any indication that the figure is intended to be female. But i am much more willing to accept the Putri Malu (shy princess) association than Durga. We do see what appears to be a stylized crown on the figure, so probably this was intended to represent a royal figure. Whether male of female i could not say, but the Shy Princess title has been around for a while.
While this selut is a little unusual and perhaps a bit blingy for this modest keris, it does appear to be well made and specifically created for this hilt. The metal appears to be silver if i am not mistaken. The stones could be quartz or the might just be glass. There seems to be a bit too much sparkle for these to be low quality diamonds and i doubt someone would have put high quality diamonds on this selut. The obvious answer to how to solve this question is simply to bring the selut to a jeweler for appraisal. There is no way t tell from your photographs what these actually are.
If this were mine, aside from cleaning the blade i would polish up the silver on that selut. Silver is not meant to appear tarnished on a keris. Also, your wood looks a bit thirsty. I think this keris will clean up nicely. And even if the selut is a bit flashy for the this otherwise humble keris i think i would keep it rather than replace it.

milandro · 9th February 2022, 04:29 PM

I have asked a friend with one of these machines to test diamonds and no it isn’t a diamond, several people in the shop agreed they may have been zirconia.

I have been getting to clean this but not all the tarnish came off and to use a polishing wheel would be really too much.

The dress was cleaned and then oiled even when I took the pictures and has been oiled more with scented oil.

Having said this, I’ve sent the wilah to be washed with warangan at a local expert and he will return it in a few days. I am curios to see what the pamor will look like. It was definitely present but discerning it from the tarnish was not easy. I will show it when it arrives.

Yes, I am aware of this being a simple keris but they are very rare in the Netherlands at least, while there are tons of Javanese kerisses the Palembang are fare and very few apart. So, I am happy with this example and who knows, maybe one day I will get some more.

The Hilt remains a “ problem”, I understand it is a correct hilt and that the ‘ damage” is in fact very common in these hilts, nevertheless my ambition is to try to improve on the looks with an hilt less plain than this. I’d be grateful if someone would come up with some suggestions for alternative hilts (so, not more of the same).

Jean · 9th February 2022, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

The Hilt remains a “ problem”, I understand it is a correct hilt and that the ‘ damage” is in fact very common in these hilts, nevertheless my ambition is to try to improve on the looks with an hilt less plain than this. I’d be grateful if someone would come up with some suggestions for alternative hilts (so, not more of the same).

See few other types of Palembang or South Sumatra style hilts (not for sale).

milandro · 12th February 2022, 09:21 AM

Thanks @Jean I am not yet convinced that I will buy another hilt and may decide to keep the things as they came to me.

Anyway the blade is being “ washed” and the expert who is entrusted with this task has sent me a preliminary cleaning stage (telephone) shot , the pamor is showing promisingly , for you all to see

Someone from Indonesia commented that this is condong campur dapur.

Sajen · 12th February 2022, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

While this selut is a little unusual and perhaps a bit blingy for this modest keris, it does appear to be well made and specifically created for this hilt. The metal appears to be silver if i am not mistaken. The stones could be quartz or the might just be glass. There seems to be a bit too much sparkle for these to be low quality diamonds and i doubt someone would have put high quality diamonds on this selut. The obvious answer to how to solve this question is simply to bring the selut to a jeweler for appraisal. There is no way t tell from your photographs what these actually are.
If this were mine, aside from cleaning the blade i would polish up the silver on that selut. Silver is not meant to appear tarnished on a keris. Also, your wood looks a bit thirsty. I think this keris will clean up nicely. And even if the selut is a bit flashy for the this otherwise humble keris i think i would keep it rather than replace it.

I agree with David, I woudn't change something by this keris.

Regards,
Detlef

Jean · 12th February 2022, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

Thanks @Jean I am not yet convinced that I will buy another hilt and may decide to keep the things as they came to me.

Yeah, in your place I would just try to replace the selut (difficult to find outside Indonesia) or better fit the hilt inside it (inserting a wooden rod into the pesi hole, filling the void space between the hilt and selut with wood putty, and carefully removing the rod when the putty is almost dry). I did it successfully several times.

kai · 12th February 2022, 07:42 PM

Quote:

I agree with David, I woudn't change something by this keris.

I beg to differ, Detlef: IMHO this selut is an abomination! I'm not referring to the "stones" but rather to its broad opening! This certainly is a later replacement and crafted by someone with pretty one-dimensional skills regarding metalwork. The hilt shows very well how the selut should really taper out with an elegant curve (also some suitable examples shown in this thread)!

OTOH, the hilt is perfectly fine. I'd give it some more TLC: It seems to have been painted at some point; I'd keep oiling it and working the surface with very fine steel wool until obtaining a pretty uniform surface. If done correctly/gently, even most of the actual patina of the wood may remain.

The blade looks like an imported blade, possibly from Madura? (It may also be locally done - Palembang is known to copy styles from all over, especially from Jawa and Sunda. Do I assume correctly that the scabbard is a good fit for the blade?

Except for the selut, this is a good ensemble possibly originating from Palembang or likely Lampung. While keris from Madura/Jawa/Sunda are much more numerous, keris from southern Sumatra are not extremely rare (especially in NL) - just keep looking!

Regards,
Kai

milandro · 12th February 2022, 08:05 PM

the fit with the scabbard is perfect

kai · 12th February 2022, 08:15 PM

Great, sounds like a genuine ensemble. As I mentioned it's common to have a wide diversity of blades in keris from southern Sumatra.

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 12th February 2022, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I beg to differ, Detlef: IMHO this selut is an abomination! I'm not referring to the "stones" but rather to its broad opening! This certainly is a later replacement and crafted by someone with pretty one-dimensional skills regarding metalwork. The hilt shows very well how the selut should really taper out with an elegant curve (also some suitable examples shown in this thread)!

Hello Kai,

Yes, the selut or pendokok isn't a masterwork of art but seems to be made for this hilt. To find a good fitting old classic one will be a challenge! Or you need to find a jeweler who will be able to work a new one. So I would keep this one by the ensemble until an other one will cross my way. We don't know if the one in question is worked in Indonesia because the original was damaged or worked in the Netherlands by a collector, is it the first case it is part of the history of this keris.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 13th February 2022, 04:53 AM

Personally I can see nothing at all wrong with this keris.

It is what it is, and what it is , is the keris of an ordinary man.

That ordinary man added a little bit of bling, something he could afford. I don't like the blingy little cubics --- if that's what they are --- but the man who put them there did, and as such they are a legitimate comment on the society from which the keris comes.

Yes, the selut has clearly not been made specifically for this keris, but it is a fact of life that ordinary men buy ordinary fittings in an ordinary pasar at ordinary prices, this is because they have ordinary incomes.

The hilt itself needs some minor repair. Jean has suggested a way of doing this, I would do something similar, but I'd use jabung to do it, which is what would be used in its place of origin.

Too much fiddling with original artefacts by people who do not understand the acceptable parameters in the societies from which these artefacts come eventually results in artefacts that are no longer representative of those societies, but rather of the tastes and standards of people who have never been near the originating societies.

It is a decent, representative keris, accept it for what it is.

Sajen · 13th February 2022, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The hilt itself needs some minor repair. Jean has suggested a way of doing this, I would do something similar, but I'd use jabung to do it, which is what would be used in its place of origin.

Too much fiddling with original artefacts by people who do not understand the acceptable parameters in the societies from which these artefacts come eventually results in artefacts that are no longer representative of those societies, but rather of the tastes and standards of people who have never been near the originating societies.

It is a decent, representative keris, accept it for what it is.

Very well said Alan.

David · 14th February 2022, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Too much fiddling with original artefacts by people who do not understand the acceptable parameters in the societies from which these artefacts come eventually results in artefacts that are no longer representative of those societies, but rather of the tastes and standards of people who have never been near the originating societies.

It is a decent, representative keris, accept it for what it is.

THIS ^^^^^

2nd February 2022, 12:13 PM	#1
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 478	My new Palembang kris I have purchased this kris which I believe is a Palengban keris. I think this kris has some age and I plan to have it washed in warangan by the person whom I trust with this treatment. Looking at the blade there are some signs of pamor but they are not so clear that one can say what it is at this stage (and perhaps even later). I will be posting, later on, after the treatment some pictures. De Ukiran appears to be what many may call a Durga hilt ( I have read on this forum of the diverse interpretations about this type of hilt). It has some damage at the base but it must have happened a long time ago. I was thinking about replacing the hilt with a suitable replacement (any suggestion whether to do it or not). They are not easy to come by in the Netherlands. Looking at the “ Seluth” (if I may call it so, I don’t know) I don’t know if it was always with this kris or not. One question is ( and I know it is a difficult one to answer) about the “ stones” , this certainly appears to be a rather humble seluth (or whatever this form is called) but the “ stones” are unusually looking “ real” compared to other examples of “ stones” on de mendaks that I have. Now this may be glass or quartz but I am not an expert , how would one tell if they are real stones or (dare I say) a low grade diamond? I understand this may be only wishful thinking! Please tell me your opinions on this, bear in mind that I am just a beginner in the kris world and I am still just trying to find my way around it. Attached Images

2nd February 2022, 02:15 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	This keris originates from South Sumatra (Palembang, Lampung, or Bengkulu) and the hilt in Durga or Puteri Malu (shy princess) style is suitable. The selut/ pendokok is probably not original and I don't know about the stones materials. The blade seems to have an indistinct pamor pattern (sanak) so I don't know how it will look like after warangan treatment. Regards Last edited by Jean; 2nd February 2022 at 06:28 PM.

2nd February 2022, 02:20 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Similar hilts with suitable seluts. Attached Images

12th February 2022, 09:21 AM	#7
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 478	Thanks @Jean I am not yet convinced that I will buy another hilt and may decide to keep the things as they came to me. Anyway the blade is being “ washed” and the expert who is entrusted with this task has sent me a preliminary cleaning stage (telephone) shot , the pamor is showing promisingly , for you all to see Someone from Indonesia commented that this is condong campur dapur. Attached Images Last edited by milandro; 12th February 2022 at 09:36 AM. Reason: extra information

2nd February 2022, 02:46 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	While i have heard some people suggest this hilt could be Durga i see absolutely no evidence or obvious indication that it represents that goddess. Frankly i don't even see any indication that the figure is intended to be female. But i am much more willing to accept the Putri Malu (shy princess) association than Durga. We do see what appears to be a stylized crown on the figure, so probably this was intended to represent a royal figure. Whether male of female i could not say, but the Shy Princess title has been around for a while. While this selut is a little unusual and perhaps a bit blingy for this modest keris, it does appear to be well made and specifically created for this hilt. The metal appears to be silver if i am not mistaken. The stones could be quartz or the might just be glass. There seems to be a bit too much sparkle for these to be low quality diamonds and i doubt someone would have put high quality diamonds on this selut. The obvious answer to how to solve this question is simply to bring the selut to a jeweler for appraisal. There is no way t tell from your photographs what these actually are. If this were mine, aside from cleaning the blade i would polish up the silver on that selut. Silver is not meant to appear tarnished on a keris. Also, your wood looks a bit thirsty. I think this keris will clean up nicely. And even if the selut is a bit flashy for the this otherwise humble keris i think i would keep it rather than replace it.

9th February 2022, 04:29 PM	#5
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 478	I have asked a friend with one of these machines to test diamonds and no it isn’t a diamond, several people in the shop agreed they may have been zirconia. I have been getting to clean this but not all the tarnish came off and to use a polishing wheel would be really too much. The dress was cleaned and then oiled even when I took the pictures and has been oiled more with scented oil. Having said this, I’ve sent the wilah to be washed with warangan at a local expert and he will return it in a few days. I am curios to see what the pamor will look like. It was definitely present but discerning it from the tarnish was not easy. I will show it when it arrives. Yes, I am aware of this being a simple keris but they are very rare in the Netherlands at least, while there are tons of Javanese kerisses the Palembang are fare and very few apart. So, I am happy with this example and who knows, maybe one day I will get some more. The Hilt remains a “ problem”, I understand it is a correct hilt and that the ‘ damage” is in fact very common in these hilts, nevertheless my ambition is to try to improve on the looks with an hilt less plain than this. I’d be grateful if someone would come up with some suggestions for alternative hilts (so, not more of the same).

12th February 2022, 08:05 PM	#11
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 478	the fit with the scabbard is perfect

12th February 2022, 08:15 PM	#12
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Great, sounds like a genuine ensemble. As I mentioned it's common to have a wide diversity of blades in keris from southern Sumatra. Regards, Kai

13th February 2022, 04:53 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	Personally I can see nothing at all wrong with this keris. It is what it is, and what it is , is the keris of an ordinary man. That ordinary man added a little bit of bling, something he could afford. I don't like the blingy little cubics --- if that's what they are --- but the man who put them there did, and as such they are a legitimate comment on the society from which the keris comes. Yes, the selut has clearly not been made specifically for this keris, but it is a fact of life that ordinary men buy ordinary fittings in an ordinary pasar at ordinary prices, this is because they have ordinary incomes. The hilt itself needs some minor repair. Jean has suggested a way of doing this, I would do something similar, but I'd use jabung to do it, which is what would be used in its place of origin. Too much fiddling with original artefacts by people who do not understand the acceptable parameters in the societies from which these artefacts come eventually results in artefacts that are no longer representative of those societies, but rather of the tastes and standards of people who have never been near the originating societies. It is a decent, representative keris, accept it for what it is.