Question about preserving a keris

[shadejoy]

Originally Posted by David

Only moderators can sort that out. But i will be honest with you. We are not going to keep moving single posts around. There is a post in the Stickies for this forum that lists "Classic" posts. Rick and i will try to find the best post(s) to include there on the subject of cleaning and preserving and place a link in the "Classics" entry.

Duly noted, I will keep an eye out for the post. Thank you @David.

[shadejoy]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

SJ, the plastic I use is purchased in 100 meter rolls, it is used in Indonesia by people who sell snack foods, they fold and seal one end over a candle, put the food inside, then seal the other end, it comes in various widths & various thicknesses.

When I have run out of it, I've used sandwich cling wrap. I only wrap the blade and I normally store that oiled and wrapped blade in the wrongko, usually with the top inch or so of the blade not in the wrongko. This is practical, and I have had some keris stored like this for more than 50 years with only an occasional re-oil. I live waterfront to a salt water lake. Those blades are as good now as they were when I first stored them.

But if you want the best way to do it --- short of modern museum conditions --- you should store each part separately.

Medicinal paraffin is mineral oil, so is Singer sewing machine oil.

There are better oils for protection than what I prefer, but gun oil has an ugly smell on keris, I use gun oil on my firearms, I use light mineral oil and aromatic oil on my keris.

If the applied gold is true kinatah it has been mechanically fixed, but a lot of current era "kinatah" is fixed with adhesive. If your keris has genuine, mechanically fixed kinatah, the oil will not harm it, if it has "kinatah" fixed with adhesive, it will loosen over time when oil is applied.

I have never observed any unwanted blade staining with any oil I have ever used.

The easiest way to keep silver looking good is to use a silver polishing cloth. I only ever use Goddards, which is made in England. I have tried other brands in the past and have found them unsatisfactory in one way or another.

The hilt will definitely require some patience & delicacy in maintenance, but that maintenance does not need to be often, I leave things go for years sometimes, I do not have the time, nor the inclination to fiddle around with literally hundreds of keris continually, and I do not have the money to pay somebody to do it for me. I do things very infrequently, but when I do work on my collection I do it properly and do it once.

The gun oil I use for my Keris is odorless. But I will look into medicinal paraffin (mineral oil) as substitute as it may be a better layer coat of protection than gun oil would.

I've found Hagerty silver polish for silver. Hopefully it's gentle enough on wood. Cleaning the warangka and hilt might just be my Spring project for this year.

Excellent advice and thank you very much as always for sharing!

[Rick]

Originally Posted by David

Only moderators can sort that out. But i will be honest with you. We are not going to keep moving single posts around. There is a post in the Stickies for this forum that lists "Classic" posts. Rick and i will try to find the best post(s) to include there on the subject of cleaning and preserving and place a link in the "Classics" entry.

I believe that research in these forums can be much more fruitful if done on one's own rather than having it all collated for you by the forum staff and put in a sticky thread.
Life is busy enough for most of us.
Seek and ye shall find.
Think of all the other useful keris related knowledge that will fall your way during the research process.

[A. G. Maisey]

SJ, if I were you I would give very serious thought to using Hagerty silver polish, or any other sort of polish, powder, paste or liquid on this hilt.

Polish compounds are designed to be used on large items.

When used on small items with delicate detail it becomes extremely difficult to remove all of the applied polish, the result then becomes a residue left in tiny depressions in the work. The removal of this residue then becomes a painstaking job that you need to have a loupe screwed into your eye to complete.

Jewellers overcome this problem by using cleaning methods that you cannot use with this wooden hilt.

A polishing cloth is really the only practical answer --- well, at least in my experience.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by shadejoy

It is a Kamardikan Keris made in 2014, a bespoke piece. I commissioned a Pande in Bali and it took almost a year to finish. The pamor (Jarot Asem) was new to him, so I would agree with you @Anthony G. that this pamor is uncommon for Balinese Keris.

I plan on putting the wilah in an airtight vacuum-sealed plastic bag for preservation.

Thank you very much @Anthony G. & @A. G. Maisey for your appreciation.

would you by chance knows or recall the Balinese panre name who made that difficult pamor pattern?

[shadejoy]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

SJ, if I were you I would give very serious thought to using Hagerty silver polish, or any other sort of polish, powder, paste or liquid on this hilt.

Polish compounds are designed to be used on large items.

When used on small items with delicate detail it becomes extremely difficult to remove all of the applied polish, the result then becomes a residue left in tiny depressions in the work. The removal of this residue then becomes a painstaking job that you need to have a loupe screwed into your eye to complete.

Jewellers overcome this problem by using cleaning methods that you cannot use with this wooden hilt.

A polishing cloth is really the only practical answer --- well, at least in my experience.

The residue ..I see. Though I may get away with using silver foam on silver pendok. But it does sound like polishing cloth is the ideal solution especially for hilt.

Thank you very much for the recommendation!

[shadejoy]

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

would you by chance knows or recall the Balinese panre name who made that difficult pamor pattern?

He's Bli Pande Made Gede Suardika. I was very grateful that he was willing to take up on my request.
I believe his smithy is called Prapen Wesi Aji.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by shadejoy

He's Bli Pande Made Gede Suardika. I was very grateful that he was willing to take up on my request.
I believe his smithy is called Prapen Wesi Aji.

thanks for info

[David]

Originally Posted by Rick

I believe that research in these forums can be much more fruitful if done on one's own rather than having it all collated for you by the forum staff and put in a sticky thread.
Life is busy enough for most of us.
Seek and ye shall find.
Think of all the other useful keris related knowledge that will fall your way during the research process.

I am of a similar mind Rick. There is an awful lot of information in our archives. Sometimes it takes a few different approaches using different key words each time. A little work can make your discoveries even more worthwhile sometimes.

[shadejoy]

Originally Posted by David

I am of a similar mind Rick. There is an awful lot of information in our archives. Sometimes it takes a few different approaches using different key words each time. A little work can make your discoveries even more worthwhile sometimes.

To be honest with you, the search function isn't what I would like it to be. But in my opinion it isn't a technical issue. Rather, it's the nature of this forum, the discussions themselves. What I'm looking for, e.g. Keris maintenance, is discussed under multiple threads with various subject lines that are seemingly unrelated to Keris maintenance. For example, the original thread may have been about Keris hilt or showcasing personal Keris but then the conversation evolves around how to clean or preserving it. I totally understand, it's how discussion works. We want to keep the flow although often times it develops into a bigger scope. That is why I think the search function is what it is and we may want to take a few different approaches using different key words. It seems like tags are few and far between.

So I totally understand where you're coming from, @David and @Rich.
As newbie, I'll take what I can get. I have nothing but high regards for this forum and its contribution to one of Indonesia's cultural heritages.

Cheers!

[A. G. Maisey]

I tend to agree with you SJ.

I've never had a lot of success when I've searched for things. The search function is a real good facility to have, but it delivers --- in some cases --- a very great number of hits.

In one way this is really good, but you need the time to shift through multiple threads, and often, after shifting through those threads I still have not come up with the thing I have a half memory of.

Other people seem to have a lot more success using this search function than I do. It is either that they are much more clever than I am in its use, or they have much more time to fill in than I have.

The ideal would be for somebody with both the interest & the time, to compile an index of relevant subjects, not just maintenance, but perhaps other things that generate recurring questions.

But then again, maybe that's not such a great idea because if all the questions could be answered without discussion, there would be no discussion, and no discussion would see this Forum die.

[A. G. Maisey]

Pande Made Gede Suardika is a known keris-smith, he would be about 50 years old now. He is located in Den Pasar.

His work is known as being quite heavy, his garap is known as being detailed & neat. His pamor is known as being well managed, but he specialises in pamor mlumah, not pamor miring. I have never heard of him making pamor miring.

I am quite surprised that he was able to produce this very complex pamor miring back in 2014. It would seem that in spite of him being so well known he is inclined to hide his light under a bushel.

[A. G. Maisey]

SJ, in respect of using a foam cleaner on any part of keris silver, think about this carefully.

When we clean embossed or engraved silver, we want the impressions in the silver to retain their patina, we do not want to remove that black or bluish patina that permits the motif to be seen.

The ideal way, and also the easiest way in which to clean a tarnished pendok is to do an initial clean with 0000 steel wool, then follow up with a silver polish cloth.

All pastes and fluids cause more problems than they solve where keris are concerned. Pastes and foams and powders and fluids are great for silver platters and large items of silver ware, this is what they are designed for.

They have the potential to break your heart if you use them on keris fittings.

[Bob A]

For preservation of ferrous metals, I've long used a product called "Eezox" which is comprised of a solvent/carrier with cleaning properties, dissolved in which there is a surface protectant, left behind when the solvent evaporates. I use it on firearms, swords and knives of various types. If the object is to be stored, I give it a light coat of Renaissance Wax, which serves to seal against moisture even more.

I have not used Eezox on keris, as I'm not sure of its effect on surfaces layered in differing metals. Nor does Ren Wax seem appropriate on keris, given the occasional roughened surfaces.

Someone did extensive anti-corrosion testing, using 46 different products. The results were interesting, though the testing environment is not one I'd imagine any of my objects being exposed to:

https://dayattherange.com/?page_id=3667

[A. G. Maisey]

I had a look at that Bob, really impressive.

But where keris are concerned I like to use an aromatic oil, my preference is a mix of a base oil, usually medicinal paraffin or Singer sewing machine oil, and the sandalwood oil with a touch of kenongo oil. But in Jawa, although my mix is probably the most frequently encountered, some people will use other aromatic oils, such as rose, or jasmin.

The reason I like to use aromatic oil is threefold, I like the smell, I don't want to insult any presence that might be in the blade (just because I cannot detect a presence doesn't mean that there is none), and lastly:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw

[shadejoy]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pande Made Gede Suardika is a known keris-smith, he would be about 50 years old now. He is located in Den Pasar.

His work is known as being quite heavy, his garap is known as being detailed & neat. His pamor is known as being well managed, but he specialises in pamor mlumah, not pamor miring. I have never heard of him making pamor miring.

I am quite surprised that he was able to produce this very complex pamor miring back in 2014. It would seem that in spite of him being so well known he is inclined to hide his light under a bushel.

@A.G. Maisey, I wasn't aware of his specialty. In fact I had never seen his prior work. It does sound like you know more about Bli Pande than I do. If anything, it shows how vast your network/connection is in Nusantara, which is not limited to Java..

I only knew Bli Pande based on articles and that he was well-known for producing pusaka rather than commercial. He did ask me about the purpose and intentions of getting the Keris. The Keris that he made for me was obviously not intended for temples therefore it was treated differently. But still followed Balinese cultural and traditions like picking the best day, offerings, rituals etc. I intend to keep my Keris as family heirloom which was probably why he accepted my order.

Noted on the silver foam and the pre-cleaning. I only will use it on the wide smooth surface area of the pendok. I will use the cloth for any silver carvings.

@Bob A Thank you for sharing. Interesting product albeit the mild odor. I want to say that although I'm a bit skeptical about the presence of other being resided in an object but I do keep my mixture of odorless gun oil (85%) with Cananga (10%) and Jasmine oil (5%). As @A.G. Maisey suggested, ..it's tradition.

Though I part way with tradition of annual cleaning and jamasan. It is my understanding that warangan and its process eat away ferric. It's acidic. So I tend to limit the procedure, only as needed or none at all if possible. Which led me to an idea of separating the wilah, by itself ,and store it in a vacuum-sealed bag after oiling for longer preservation.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pande Made Gede Suardika is a known keris-smith, he would be about 50 years old now. He is located in Den Pasar.

His work is known as being quite heavy, his garap is known as being detailed & neat. His pamor is known as being well managed, but he specialises in pamor mlumah, not pamor miring. I have never heard of him making pamor miring.

I am quite surprised that he was able to produce this very complex pamor miring back in 2014. It would seem that in spite of him being so well known he is inclined to hide his light under a bushel.

I agree with Alan, this pamor pattern does not look balinese at all

[David]

Originally Posted by shadejoy

To be honest with you, the search function isn't what I would like it to be. But in my opinion it isn't a technical issue. Rather, it's the nature of this forum, the discussions themselves. What I'm looking for, e.g. Keris maintenance, is discussed under multiple threads with various subject lines that are seemingly unrelated to Keris maintenance. For example, the original thread may have been about Keris hilt or showcasing personal Keris but then the conversation evolves around how to clean or preserving it. I totally understand, it's how discussion works. We want to keep the flow although often times it develops into a bigger scope. That is why I think the search function is what it is and we may want to take a few different approaches using different key words. It seems like tags are few and far between.

So I totally understand where you're coming from, @David and @Rich.
As newbie, I'll take what I can get. I have nothing but high regards for this forum and its contribution to one of Indonesia's cultural heritages.

Cheers!

hmmm...i am not sure exactly what you would like it to be. Are you using the basic single window search, or have you used the drop down window to find the "Advanced Search". The more specific your search key words, the more specific your results will be. You can also search for exact phrasing by placing quotation marks (" ") around your phrase. This might eliminate hits that don't quite match up with your desired search as it will only lead to uses of those exact phrases rather than the individual words as the search otherwise responds to threads that contain the keywords used regardless of what order the words appear in. But ultimately, even if you are led to threads that are mostly discussing other subjects than the one your were searching for, you will be enriching yourself with other keris information. The keris cannot be understood in a vacuum; the more you read the better informed you will become.

[shadejoy]

Originally Posted by David

hmmm...i am not sure exactly what you would like it to be. Are you using the basic single window search, or have you used the drop down window to find the "Advanced Search". The more specific your search key words, the more specific your results will be. You can also search for exact phrasing by placing quotation marks (" ") around your phrase. This might eliminate hits that don't quite match up with your desired search as it will only lead to uses of those exact phrases rather than the individual words as the search otherwise responds to threads that contain the keywords used regardless of what order the words appear in. But ultimately, even if you are led to threads that are mostly discussing other subjects than the one your were searching for, you will be enriching yourself with other keris information. The keris cannot be understood in a vacuum; the more you read the better informed you will become.

I hope you don't misconstrue this as an attack ..or even a demand, it is not.

You're right, I use the basic search. I also try the advanced search and it does somewhat limit the results. I did not know before about the phrase search using double quotation. That is a great tip!

I would use the same "Keris Maintenance" as an example and using basic simple window search, advanced search and quotations. I've found that all of these methods still yield seemingly unrelated to Keris maintenance thread names. As I've mentioned before, it is to be expected. I don't think it's a technical faulty of the search engine, it does what it was designed for. It's just the nature of the discussions.

For a total newbie they might think that they didn't find what they were looking for. When in reality it is in there. You have valid argument about enriching ourselves during the search process and they are fascinating and very interesting! When I press search on Keris maintenance ..among the results, there I see a thread called The Flying Keris. Now who wouldn't be interested in knowing more about the flying Keris. I'm not being sarcastic and I did read the entire thread because it's mighty intriguing. So again, you do have a valid argument.

But for some people, that can be perceived as noise. Moreover, these seemingly threads may also only contain bits and pieces of what we're looking for. It's like going to a library or book store. You find individual countries mentioned in all books about romances, great battles, iconic characters, action scenes and riveting anecdotes. They are captivating. However ..my purpose is only to find a list of countries in the world.

My point of view is similar to A. G. Maisey's, a place for everything and everything in its place, that it would be ideal to have some kind of index for generic most common questions. Just for the most frequently asked questions. I think Keris cleaning & maintenance easily falls under the category.

I do recognize that there are limitations, as all things in this world. We can always find things eventually if we have enough determination. The last thing I want is to impose on anybody's valuable time which I'm sure is a shared belief of all members in this forum.

Respectfully.

[David]

No worries Shadejoy, i don't feel attacked in the least.
I will say though, that collecting and correlating all the information you seek and organizing it in an index for easy access in order to save members some time and effort by bringing them directly to the exact tidbit of information they are seeking would be an enormous task to undertake. While you and other members might enjoy the results of such an effort i do not really feel that i would personally enjoy the task. After all, this is not a paying job and my time is valuable as well. LOL!
I also might suggest that you spend a little more time trying to figure out how the search engine works to help you pinpoint your searches so that you can avoid having to read through aspects of threads you have no interest in. Are you aware, for instance, that when you use the basic search you have the ability to focus your results to "Show Thread" or "Show Post". If you choose "Show Post" you will only get the post where your keyword shows up in your results, thereby avoiding having to read the entire "Flying Keris" thread in order to find the part about keris maintenance that might have been posted somewhere in there. You can do the same in the Advanced Search as well as search for just responses from particular members or only specific dates and/or forums, etc.
I will add that no one taught me these things. I learned them by opening up the search and messing around to find out how i can get more specific and efficient results from the program.
I hope that you don't perceive this as an attack or me being too harsh, but i don't really have the time to serve up on a silver plate all the precise tidbits of specific and varied information that each and every member here might be seeking at any given time. We have a pretty vast archive here after so many years of discussion and while everything there is to know about keris certainly isn't in there you will find that there is quite a bit of combined knowledge and imagery to be found in our archive. It doesn't cost you a penny. But it will cost you a bit of your own time and effort.

[shadejoy]

Originally Posted by David

No worries Shadejoy, i don't feel attacked in the least.
I will say though, that collecting and correlating all the information you seek and organizing it in an index for easy access in order to save members some time and effort by bringing them directly to the exact tidbit of information they are seeking would be an enormous task to undertake. While you and other members might enjoy the results of such an effort i do not really feel that i would personally enjoy the task. After all, this is not a paying job and my time is valuable as well. LOL!
I also might suggest that you spend a little more time trying to figure out how the search engine works to help you pinpoint your searches so that you can avoid having to read through aspects of threads you have no interest in. Are you aware, for instance, that when you use the basic search you have the ability to focus your results to "Show Thread" or "Show Post". If you choose "Show Post" you will only get the post where your keyword shows up in your results, thereby avoiding having to read the entire "Flying Keris" thread in order to find the part about keris maintenance that might have been posted somewhere in there. You can do the same in the Advanced Search as well as search for just responses from particular members or only specific dates and/or forums, etc.
I will add that no one taught me these things. I learned them by opening up the search and messing around to find out how i can get more specific and efficient results from the program.
I hope that you don't perceive this as an attack or me being too harsh, but i don't really have the time to serve up on a silver plate all the precise tidbits of specific and varied information that each and every member here might be seeking at any given time. We have a pretty vast archive here after so many years of discussion and while everything there is to know about keris certainly isn't in there you will find that there is quite a bit of combined knowledge and imagery to be found in our archive. It doesn't cost you a penny. But it will cost you a bit of your own time and effort.

@David, Perfectly understood and thank you for the pointers, I appreciate it very much.