Dha from Bassein

[Kubur]

Hi Guys

Here a dha from Bassein (Pathein), I'm no expert but it is written on it!

I guess it is not an old dha, I would say end of the British occupation, 1920-30ties.

Please tell me it's an 18th c. dha!
Not old, but the blade and construction are excellent.

The name on it is probably from the guy who did the scabbard and not necessarily the sword maker.

"Komg Thaw, silver goldsmith Bassein"

I will be helpful if someone can translate the Burmese bits on the guard.

Thanks

Kubur

[kahnjar1]

IMHO this dha looks to be very modern. Nice looking piece but IF the name punched in is of a silver/goldsmith then I would have expected a much tidier script. A translation of the Burmese might clarify things better.
Stu

[Ian]

Hi Kubur,

I think this dha's age is later than your estimate--probably mid- to late-20th C. The scabbard is in the segmented style that I usually associate with Lao work,* and it appears to have a silver wash over copper or a copper alloy. The repoussed/embossed work is rather course and is of low-medium quality to my eyes. It is the scabbard suspension that also gives this away as less than high quality work, most likely designed for a foreigner. A thin cord sling attached widely apart on the scabbard is not how it should be mounted; the traditional mount (and what would be expected by an owner within the culture) is a loop of thicker cotton cord that is wrapped multiple times around the top of the scabbard and fixed with ends tucked into the wrapping. The loop should be long enough to suspend the sword from a shoulder or slung across the chest.

The blade appears to be well forged and has the prominent fuller seen on many Burmese dha of the 20th C. The bright, smooth polish to the blade suggests to me that it may have been chrome-plated. This is seen occasionally on Burmese dha of the mid- to late-20th C--I have a couple of examples. It is hard to know how well tempered these blades are, but I would not put this one through any cutting tests. The hilt is interesting and the material used for the grip is unfamiliar. Can you ascertain what it is? The picture is hard to discern (is it copper?). The two ferrules on the hilt may be silver- or chrome-plated--again, I have examples of chrome plated hilts also. They do not resemble closely the solid silver examples seen on older pieces, where you can identify the individual pieces of the silverwork (e.g., twisted filigree, solid wire, etc.) used in the construction. Here there appears to be a uniform coating to the components of the ferrules, i.e., plating.

I believe what you have is a nice decorative Burmese dha from the mid-20th C.


--------------

* This style of scabbard is seen with some 20th C Burmese dha, and occasionally on much earlier pieces where the quality of workmanship is considerably better.

[Kubur]

Hi Ian,

Thank you very much for your comments about this sword.
I agree about mid 20th c. No later than 1950 and maybe a few years earlier as Bassein was renamed after the British left the country and it will be stupid to ignore this important information.

Originally Posted by Ian

it appears to have a silver wash over copper or a copper alloy. The repoussed/embossed work is rather course and is of low-medium quality to my eyes. It is the scabbard suspension that also gives this away as less than high quality work,

My photos are not good, the yellow is over the silver and not the opposite, I can confirm that it is plain silver and tarnished.

Compared to the so-called temple dha (bad quality), I would say medium quality, I need to do some photos.

Originally Posted by Ian

the scabbard suspension that also gives this away as less than high quality work, most likely designed for a foreigner.
I believe what you have is a nice decorative Burmese dha

Because of the quality of the workmanship and the fact that the sword is balanced, heavy and sharp, I prefer to say presentation sword, probably for some British militaries more than tourists.

Originally Posted by Ian

The hilt is interesting and the material used for the grip is unfamiliar. Can you ascertain what it is? The picture is hard to discern (is it copper?). The two ferrules on the hilt may be silver- or chrome-plated--again, I have examples of chrome plated hilts also.

The hilt is heavily chrome plated, the medium part seems to be cooper or brass (I wish gold). :-)

I normaly don't collect 20th c. swords but this one is really fun and very decorative...

[kronckew]

The hilt is very much like mine - see the photos in post 15 in this thread: https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=180723 - the main photo is below.



Mine has a more traditional blade and scabbard, shows a peacock bird in the brass/bronze section and also has a burmese/mon inscription on the silver section...and no western lettering.


Full thread is here: https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...Sword+scabbord

[Iain]

A friend was able to translate the script. Quite interesting... It says "beware of forgeries!"

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Iain

A friend was able to translate the script. Quite interesting... It says "beware of forgeries!"

Well Stu was right to be suspicious, it is a forgery!

Unless Kronckew's sword is the forgery!!

More seriously, it is very interesting. Thanks for the translation.
Kronckew's hilt is the same.
Kronck are you sure it is silver and not chrome??
Do you have the translation of yours?
Iain are you aware of such things for mid and early 20th c. dha???
Is it a statment such as Coca Cola the original...?
But in this case, this kind of sword should be more visible on the market. Two examples is not a lot...
Strange.

[kronckew]

The best swords are forged.
Many fakes are made by stock removal, not forging.

Chrome does not tarnish black, as found in the deeper un-rubbed parts of the decorative areas on mine. The tarnish is more evident in the better pictures in my earlier thread.No chrome on mine. No wide fuller on the blade, either. It's also very thick at the root where it enters the grip, and is strongly distal tapered & razor sharp. The scabbard is a functional 'military' one, not a decorative thin silver-coloured thingy. The decorated brass or bronze bands are I gather typical for higher ranking army officers, with higher ranks having more bands. It owuld have had a baldric made of a heavy braided line like the one below, rather than the 'Royal' style on the above OP 'silver' scabbard.

Haven't found anyone who can translate the inscription on mine, I feel it's a presentation statement. not many around who can read the older Burmese/Mon script.

[kahnjar1]

Hi Kubur,
If you check out this link you will note that Burma has been called Burma for centuries, and as far as I can see from the Wiki history it has never been called Bassein. Therefore one can not use the counties name change, as stated in your reply to Ian, as a dating aid to your dha. The country is of course now called Myanmar. Like others I would date your dha as LATE 20th c at the earliest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Myanmar
Stu

[kai]

Well, it's a town/city: an important port and capital of the district...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathein

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by kronckew

The best swords are forged.
Many fakes are made by stock removal, not forging.

Kronckew I was joking!
Of course you have a beautiful sword and I think our both swords were done by the same maker.
Now the questions are
Do you have the original scabbard?
Or do we have both replacement scabbards?

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by kai

Well, it's a town/city: an important port and capital of the district...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathein

Thank you Kai
Stu, it is a town.
Mid 20th c. by the latest!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_rule_in_Burma

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Kronckew I was joking!
...

Me Too! - I was jokingly commenting on Iain's post (Not Ian's).

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Me Too!

Good, but now I feel obliged to do better photos of my blade!

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Thank you Kai
Stu, it is a town.
Mid 20th c. by the latest!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_rule_in_Burma

Hi Kubur,
Yes I agree it is a town, now called Pathein. The point I was trying to make was how you think that your dha originated there, unless of course it says so on the piece, and how you can date it based on the info you have. I think it is fair to say that most replies to your thread seem to think that it is a late 20th c piece.
Stu

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Iain are you aware of such things for mid and early 20th c. dha???
Is it a statment such as Coca Cola the original...?
But in this case, this kind of sword should be more visible on the market. Two examples is not a lot...
Strange.

I would guess it was simply one smith or workshop who was perhaps annoyed at some cheaper competition...

[Kubur]

Hi guys,

Here are some photos of the blade, back edge flat then polygonal, one big fuller and some narrow above...

[Peter Dekker]

Hi,

I agree with most people's assessment that it looks like rather late work, like the second half of the 20th century. It is not bad, compared to what normally was produced during this period, but it's probably not an item that was made "for the culture".

However, on the type of suspension:

Originally Posted by Ian

It is the scabbard suspension that also gives this away as less than high quality work, most likely designed for a foreigner. A thin cord sling attached widely apart on the scabbard is not how it should be mounted; the traditional mount (and what would be expected by an owner within the culture) is a loop of thicker cotton cord that is wrapped multiple times around the top of the scabbard and fixed with ends tucked into the wrapping. The loop should be long enough to suspend the sword from a shoulder or slung across the chest.

This widely spaced layout of two rings to hold a cord or strap does seem to be part of a somewhat older tradition. It is seen on a number of large presentation dha from the late 19th to the first decades of the 20th century.

Among the ones I have had were at least two that were made for locals, by virtue of their inscriptions. The first had references on the blade to a general that fought the British fiercely, another the name of Maung Po Min, a Shan aristocrat. Both swords were probably from the 1920s or 1930s, exhibiting the typical high-level silver repousse work also seen on bowls from that period.

A last one (bottom) is somewhat earlier and indeed made for a foreigner, Sir Owen Tudor Burne (1837–1909). This one, oddly, only has the ring at the top.

I am not sure why the suspension method on this type differs, but just to illustrate it's not a fantasy feature only seen on low-grade items. I think it was perhaps because these were meant to be carried by someone other than their user, and thus not worn "at the ready" like someone would wear his own sword. But that's just speculation.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Peter Dekker

Hi,

I agree with most people's assessment that it looks like rather late work, like the second half of the 20th century. It is not bad, compared to what normally was produced during this period, but it's probably not an item that was made "for the culture".

Thanks Peter, actualy it is only Stu who keeps insisting that is end of 20th c.
I agreed with Ian about mid 20th c.

In your very nice website, you rely a lot on inscriptions on blades and scabbards, and you are right. Why not keep in consideration the inscription on mine? When Bassein's name changed for Pathein? mid 50ties or late 40ties?

Originally Posted by Peter Dekker

Hi,

However, on the type of suspension:

This widely spaced layout of two rings to hold a cord or strap does seem to be part of a somewhat older tradition. It is seen on a number of large presentation dha from the late 19th to the first decades of the 20th century.
...
but just to illustrate it's not a fantasy feature only seen on low-grade items.

Correct, plus, I need to post some photos of the silver work, it is not top quality as what you mentionned but it is very descent and much better than the temple dha from 1900.

[Peter Dekker]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Thanks Peter, actualy it is only Stu who keeps insisting that is end of 20th c.
I agreed with Ian about mid 20th c.

In your very nice website, you rely a lot on inscriptions on blades and scabbards, and you are right. Why not keep in consideration the inscription on mine? When Bassein's name changed for Pathein? mid 50ties or late 40ties?

Thanks for your kind words!

The name change happened pretty late, 1989, so that doesn't help a lot in pushing the date back, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Kubur

Correct, plus, I need to post some photos of the silver work, it is not top quality as what you mentionned but it is very descent and much better than the temple dha from 1900.

Looking forward to seeing more.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Peter Dekker

Thanks for your kind words!

The name change happened pretty late, 1989, so that doesn't help a lot in pushing the date back, unfortunately.
.

Its worth noting that many cities and districts were renamed post 1989, at times these name changes reflect an effort to make the names more Burmese rather than the local language version. A good example is Hsipaw becoming Thibaw. In essence I would not be surprised if locals used both versions somewhat interchangeably.

[Kubur]

Thank you both
Well I abdicate about Bassein...
But I still think that the sword is too nice to be late 20thc.
I will accept mid 20th c.
I'm surprised that no one commented the similarity with Kronkwe sword, the same hilt.
I can see the British peacock on the hilt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Seal_of_Myanmar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_rule_in_Burma

I can see 2 inscriptions on the hilt, one on the guard like mine and another just above the peacock's head. It would be nice to have a translation...

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Thank you both
Well I abdicate about Bassein...
But I still think that the sword is too nice to be late 20thc.
I will accept mid 20th c.
I'm surprised that no one commented the similarity with Kronkwe sword, the same hilt.
I can see the British peacock on the hilt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Seal_of_Myanmar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_rule_in_Burma

I can see 2 inscriptions on the hilt, one on the guard like mine and another just above the peacock's head. It would be nice to have a translation...

Both swords are obviously from either the same workshop or a similar point of origin. I think nobody commented because it was quite clear?

The peacock is not British, it was used by the Konbaung dynasty the British defeated. The British simply assumed similar trappings of state during the colonial period.

[kronckew]

The peacock on my sword has the same lettering arched above the head as the royal seal of the Konbaung royal era 1752–1885, I'd thus guess mine was made sometime in that area of time.


Kubur, does yours have a peacock? It's not evident in the photos. If it does, is the lettering similar? Without the peacock, I'd suspect it was somewhat newer.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Iain

Both swords are obviously from either the same workshop or a similar point of origin. I think nobody commented because it was quite clear?

The peacock is not British, it was used by the Konbaung dynasty the British defeated. The British simply assumed similar trappings of state during the colonial period.

Sorry, I should have been more precise, the Burmese peacock reused by the British during the colonial period until 1948.

Yes, these swords are identical, for the hilts at 95% I’ve seen only 2 dha like that on the web.

Blades are different. I believe mine is of a better construction. I wish to see better photos of Kronkew’s blade.

Kronkew has a more “ethnic” scabbard, again better photos will be helpful. Ethnic doesn’t mean old. Finally, I have to do better photos of my scabbard, the whole sword was overcleaned with bits of brasso everywhere. I guess the shinny aspect can fool some members, as the ethnic scabbard from Kronkew can fool others...

[Kubur]

Ah now I’m laughing. We have similar swords from the end of the 19th c. or from the end of the 20th c.

Not laughing at you Kronkew, and I like your sword as I like mine, and I don’t care if my sword is mid 20th c. But it is important for all the forum members to take what is written here (on this forum) as opinions and just opinions, from collectors and dealers. There is no self-proclaimed experts. Ariel wrote something very right in another thread, I’ll probably quote him about the takouba that I posted one day.

Originally Posted by kronckew

The peacock on my sword has the same lettering arched above the head as the royal seal of the Konbaung royal era 1752–1885, I'd thus guess mine was made sometime in that area of time.

Kubur, does yours have a peacock? It's not evident in the photos. If it does, is the lettering similar? Without the peacock, I'd suspect it was somewhat newer.

Are you sure, do you have the translation for both inscriptions?

How do you know that the inscription is original from the 19thc. and not memorabilia? I haven’t seen any date mentioned in the post related to your sword.

I sincerely will be very happy if you were right, it will mean that the other assessments about 20th C. were wrong and just based on “feelings”.

I also liked the discussion from Peter about suspension rings and shows that “we” have a lot of cliches in mind.

My sword has no peacock, but it doesn’t mean anything, just the decoration on the grip is different.

But the same hilt, I think - like Ian - that is extremely clear and obvious.

I had the feeling that my sword was 20th c., early 1920-30. Then after Ian /Peter comments I was convinced that my sword was from mid 20thc. Pre 1948.

But after Peter comments (on suspension), I started to think, oh well maybe this sword is old after all…

Now I think that our swords are probably 1920-1950ties.

[kronckew]

I conclude that our swords are both 20th Century, and both likely from the same area, if not the same bladesmithy.

I gather my sword scabbard is probably inter-war - between WWI and WWII, ie. 1930's, as is the sword, even considering the use of the peacock - which was probably copied up to the end in 1978 on these type.

The 'silver' metal on both swords is probably a lower grade silver alloy, and the central part the local version of bronze.

I also have found that the fancy Dhas/Daab are often given for wedding wear by the groom, and then hung in their silver alloy scabbards on the wall, like temple dha, and much like brides save their wedding dresses. The suspension on yours is the norm for a wedding dha.

Your blade is likely post WWII and is a proper fighting blade like mine, just a bit more modern and more decorated. 1950's IS likely. I suspect the custom of hanging on the wall is also justincase they need a bit of home defence - as is still common in more remote and wilder areas.

And wedding dhas are still sold there. Just not as high a quality as yours.

The inscriptions on the grip near the blade junction are still a mystery tho, which hopefully we will be given an answer in future.

[Ian]

Hi Wayne,

Well said. The suspension system is intended for hanging on a wall as you noted, despite some older, high quality examples showing a similar suspension system. Those older dha were probably presentation/ceremonial items also, not designed for wearing but for show. The so-called "temple dha" of the 20th C likely served much the same function (at lower cost). Both your example and Kubur's are at the higher end of swords made in the last 50-60 years for these purposes.

The replacement of the traditional baldric with one or two metal rings is a strong clue to their decorative purposes.

[Kubur]

Well, I stay on mine, 1930-1948, until the inscriptions are translated.

I let the discussion about suspensions and baldric to Peter and Iain.

http://www.swordforum.com/vb4/showth...84-Burmese-Dha

Thank you all for your opinions, all the information and the interesting discussion!

Kind regards
Kubur

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well, I stay on mine, 1930-1948, until the inscriptions are translated.

I let the discussion about suspensions and baldric to Peter and Iain.

http://www.swordforum.com/vb4/showth...84-Burmese-Dha

Thank you all for your opinions, all the information and the interesting discussion!

Kind regards
Kubur

The inscription above the peacock simply says "Burma peacock King."