Kaskara

Valjhun · 1st June 2006, 06:36 PM

6633132820 Decent one for a decent price....

Blade seems a verry crude one...

70 cm overal.

As a matter of fact, what is the maximum lenght kaskara you've got?

Rick · 1st June 2006, 06:49 PM

115cm in the scabbard .
96cm blade .
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1967

katana · 1st June 2006, 08:23 PM

I too followed this one, wasn't overly convinced it was a good one , the length (as already pointed out was, I felt, too short).........and that blade

looked like a madman with an angle-grinder had decided to give it a 'polish'

Jeff D · 1st June 2006, 08:27 PM

I also saw this one. When was the last time you saw one of the moons not face the edge?

Jeff

Tim Simmons · 1st June 2006, 08:37 PM

Eagle eyed Jeff, just look at the chord. This is nasty.

Valjhun · 1st June 2006, 08:47 PM

Well, just a slumby one i guess with added chord...

Are you really saying that it is wrong?

Rick · 1st June 2006, 08:52 PM

Sure it looks cheap , crude and touristy .

I thought you were interested in a comparison of lengths of Kaskara .

This one looks like a child's toy .

Valjhun · 1st June 2006, 09:14 PM

Yes, sure Rick, predominantly in the lenghts, but 90% of the kaskaras with native blades looks crude and cheap, or I'm missing something?

Another thing . I've noticed that thoose short ones were carried under the arm with the belt over the shoulder. What about thoose lenghty ones? Were they over worn across the back?

Rick · 1st June 2006, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Yes, sure Rick, predominantly in that, but 90% of the kaskaras looks crude and cheap, or I'm missing something?

Interesting , how many have you seen ?

Now native blades do look for the most part cruder than the trade blades used .

One could transport a long Kaskara on one's back but it could never be drawn from that position ; you would need an arm five feet long .

Is it just the native blade that puts you off or is it the leather wrap on the hilt also ?

Valjhun · 1st June 2006, 09:29 PM

Well a lot I guess, thatone beeing the slumpiest maybe. Actually a great part of sudanese weapons look verry crude to me... Only an impression?

Rick · 1st June 2006, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Well a lot I guess, that one beeing the slumpiest maybe. Actually a great part of sudanese weapons look verry crude to me... Only an impression?

Well , personally speaking I can't say that I totally disagree with you on that point .
There are many exceptions though showing a high degree of craftsmanship and design .

One must admit to the efficacy of the Kaskara as it was one of the major weapons used to break the much vaunted British Square during the war in the Sudan against the Mahdists .

When swords overcome rifles ........

Tim Simmons · 1st June 2006, 09:45 PM

Is this crude enough. I have more to come , I will show it when it arrives.

Rick · 1st June 2006, 09:54 PM

Ahh , Tim !
Good to see you here .

I'm sure you've got some great examples of Sudanese work to show .

Jeff D · 1st June 2006, 11:20 PM

Hi Valjhun,

As Tim, Rick and kantana have noted, this probably is not the best that the Sudanese can do. Most likely it was made for those travelling for pleasure.

BTW My kaskara is 104 cm total length.

Jeff

Rick · 2nd June 2006, 03:16 AM

Jeff ; I see a mark on the blade ; do you have a closeup of it ?

Jeff D · 2nd June 2006, 04:03 AM

Hi Rick,

I will be happy to show these. They are stamped, and a couple are inlaid with either copper or a red gold. The marks are attributed to Peter Kull the last picture is from "Geschichte Der Solinger Klingenindustrie" by R. Cronau. I think I did post this one before on the old forum. If you want any other close ups I will be more than happy to show this one off, crude they say Hummph...

Jeff

Valjhun · 2nd June 2006, 08:31 AM

Well, I'll repeat myself: MOST of the kaskaras&sudanese weapons today on the market are of crude made, that SURELY DOESN'T mean that everythitng from Sudan is crudely made. There are masterpieces of extreeme craftsmanship coming from there aslo.

On the other hand, saying that this kaskara is made for tourists is verry questionable, as far as I know there were never tourism in Sudan.

Jeff, your kaskara is a gorgeus one with german blade. Beutifull inlays, it surely seems gold.

Quote:

One must admit to the efficacy of the Kaskara as it was one of the major weapons used to break the much vaunted British Square during the war in the Sudan against the Mahdists .

Yes, extreme efficiency showed during the last battle, 45 casualties on the british side and 11.000 on the Mahdist...

Another thing . I've noticed that thoose short ones were carried under the arm with the belt over the shoulder. What about thoose lenghty ones? Were they over worn over the back?

Tim, can you make it even more crude that thisone:

ariel · 2nd June 2006, 11:06 AM

So, gentlemen, is Kaskara a descendent of the early European swords (you know, the crusaders story) or of early pre-islamic Arabian swords?

Tim Simmons · 2nd June 2006, 11:16 AM

Could it go west Africa to east African?

Give me the money and I will happily travel across the Sahara taking notes and pictures , into the Arabian peninsula if I have too. Now that is what I call research, I might as well look at arm knives while I am at it.

In my dreams

.

M.carter · 2nd June 2006, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

So, gentlemen, is Kaskara a descendent of the early European swords (you know, the crusaders story) or of early pre-islamic Arabian swords?

The blade certainly looks it descended from the old, pre-medieval arab swords, and probably with a connection with crusader swords too, as those two styles of swords, arab and crusader (early crusades, that is), were very similar in shape. As for the hilt, we have no existing arab blades with their original hilts on, all were re-hilted by the Ottomans, except for a few syrian swords, whose hilts do not look like the kaskara's.

Rick · 2nd June 2006, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Rick,

I will be happy to show these. They are stamped, and a couple are inlaid with either copper or a red gold. The marks are attributed to Peter Kull the last picture is from "Geschichte Der Solinger Klingenindustrie" by R. Cronau. I think I did post this one before on the old forum. If you want any other close ups I will be more than happy to show this one off, crude they say Hummph...

Jeff

Jeff , any ideas on this mark ?

Lew · 2nd June 2006, 03:15 PM

Hi All

Speaking of short kaskaras here is one of mine that was posted a while ago.
It has a 23" European blade.

Lew

Valjhun · 2nd June 2006, 06:17 PM

ferara? It shouldn't be inscribed "Ferrara"?

M.carter · 2nd June 2006, 11:23 PM

Beautiful Sword Jeff, I must say, one of the most beautiful Kaskara's ive seen. Valjhun, my amature knowledge of Kaskara's tells me that that blade is an authentic, valuable piece, unfortunately destroyed by someone who attempted to polish or resharpen it. Ive personally seen this act done on many blades, particulary Hejazi Jambiyas (the long bladed ones), whereas the dealer acquires it slightly rusted or blunt, and attempts to re-polish it, and employs a belt sander to do the job, or attempts to re-sharpen it, and grinds it on a bench grinder. Ive encountered one dealer who was showing me a jambiya, boasting his "beautiful" restoration job on the blade, whereas he had actually destroyed it. Many valuable pieces encounter coming out of the middle east encounter such acts. I wouldnt say though, that the your Kaskara is a tourist piece, or anywhere near recent.

Jeff D · 3rd June 2006, 03:40 AM

Hi All,

Rick; That mark looks like a swallow tail butterfly? I have looked through all my references and can't find anything similar, I will keep looking. Very nice piece BTW.

Mark; thank you i really like this kaskara it is one of those swords that "feels" powerful, however next to that masterpiece posted by Valjhun it does seem plain.

Valjhun; Of course we knew you didn't think all Sudanese weapons are crude, I was just having a little fun, sorry no offence was intended.

. Regarding the tourist attribution to the e-bay piece, It is my understanding that through the 19th and 20th centuries there were many Brits etc. travelling through this region, there used to be a poster on the old forum as well as Dr. Lee who went there and saw many blades for sell to tourists. To explain why i feel this one most likely is one of these; First it is very crudely made with no attempt to finish it, both the blade and hilt. second and the most damning thing is the moons. I have never seen one of these face anything but the edge of the blade (anyone know why?). If you look the face that faces the middle of the blade is also upside down which means it is the correct mirror image and would have been the correct way arround if it faced the edge. Why this was done i don't know possible a quickly rushed piece, possible very poor attention to detail, or possible an insult to the intended buyer? In any event not likely a fact that would go unnoticed by the locals if it was a working piece?

Ariel; From what I have read on these, I agree with Mark that these are Islamic influenced and unlikely to be fashioned after crusader pieces. In fact the myth of crusader swords turned into kaskaras is until I see otherwise, just that, A myth. (Exempting the few pieces found in the Alexander armoury as previously noted by Jim, ham and C. Spring).

Lew; You have no idea how much I have thought of your piece since you first posted it, it is a treasure.

Jeff

Aqtai · 3rd June 2006, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

So, gentlemen, is Kaskara a descendent of the early European swords (you know, the crusaders story) or of early pre-islamic Arabian swords?

Oh definitely descended from Early Arab swords, which continued to used right until the 15th century. The shape of the blade is very similar. The hilts however are probably a mixture of different influences.

Check out these links:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...dofMuawiya.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11.../ISAS_27_1.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...el_30_ISAS.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...ISAS_pl_80.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...51_ISAS_pl.jpg

ariel · 3rd June 2006, 04:10 PM

British military was transported by sea and the space was very limited.
I do not remember where I read it, but the rank-and-file British soldier was allowed to bring home one trunk of luggage sized ~ 2 x2 x4 feet. officers were given much more space. Which means that soldiers were unlikely to bring long swords, only daggers (likely, quite simple), but the officers could get better examples, bigger sizes and transport them back for free.
Generals, of course, got THE loot....

1st June 2006, 06:36 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Kaskara 6633132820 Decent one for a decent price.... Blade seems a verry crude one... 70 cm overal. As a matter of fact, what is the maximum lenght kaskara you've got?

1st June 2006, 06:49 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Kaskara 115cm in the scabbard . 96cm blade . http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1967

1st June 2006, 09:45 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Is this crude enough. I have more to come , I will show it when it arrives. Attached Images

1st June 2006, 11:20 PM	#14
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Valjhun, As Tim, Rick and kantana have noted, this probably is not the best that the Sudanese can do. Most likely it was made for those travelling for pleasure. BTW My kaskara is 104 cm total length. Jeff Attached Images

2nd June 2006, 04:03 AM	#16
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Rick, I will be happy to show these. They are stamped, and a couple are inlaid with either copper or a red gold. The marks are attributed to Peter Kull the last picture is from "Geschichte Der Solinger Klingenindustrie" by R. Cronau. I think I did post this one before on the old forum. If you want any other close ups I will be more than happy to show this one off, crude they say Hummph... Jeff Attached Images

1st June 2006, 08:23 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I too followed this one, wasn't overly convinced it was a good one , the length (as already pointed out was, I felt, too short).........and that blade looked like a madman with an angle-grinder had decided to give it a 'polish'

1st June 2006, 08:27 PM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	I also saw this one. When was the last time you saw one of the moons not face the edge? Jeff

1st June 2006, 08:37 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Eagle eyed Jeff, just look at the chord. This is nasty.

1st June 2006, 08:47 PM	#6
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well, just a slumby one i guess with added chord... Are you really saying that it is wrong?

1st June 2006, 08:52 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Sure it looks cheap , crude and touristy . I thought you were interested in a comparison of lengths of Kaskara . This one looks like a child's toy .

1st June 2006, 09:14 PM	#8
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Yes, sure Rick, predominantly in the lenghts, but 90% of the kaskaras with native blades looks crude and cheap, or I'm missing something? Another thing . I've noticed that thoose short ones were carried under the arm with the belt over the shoulder. What about thoose lenghty ones? Were they over worn across the back?

1st June 2006, 09:29 PM	#10
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well a lot I guess, thatone beeing the slumpiest maybe. Actually a great part of sudanese weapons look verry crude to me... Only an impression?

1st June 2006, 09:54 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Ahh , Tim ! Good to see you here . I'm sure you've got some great examples of Sudanese work to show .

2nd June 2006, 03:16 AM	#15
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Jeff ; I see a mark on the blade ; do you have a closeup of it ?

2nd June 2006, 11:06 AM	#18
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	So, gentlemen, is Kaskara a descendent of the early European swords (you know, the crusaders story) or of early pre-islamic Arabian swords?

2nd June 2006, 11:16 AM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Could it go west Africa to east African? Give me the money and I will happily travel across the Sahara taking notes and pictures , into the Arabian peninsula if I have too. Now that is what I call research, I might as well look at arm knives while I am at it. In my dreams .

2nd June 2006, 03:15 PM	#22
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi All Speaking of short kaskaras here is one of mine that was posted a while ago. It has a 23" European blade. Lew Attached Images

2nd June 2006, 06:17 PM	#23
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	ferara? It shouldn't be inscribed "Ferrara"?

2nd June 2006, 11:23 PM	#24
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Beautiful Sword Jeff, I must say, one of the most beautiful Kaskara's ive seen. Valjhun, my amature knowledge of Kaskara's tells me that that blade is an authentic, valuable piece, unfortunately destroyed by someone who attempted to polish or resharpen it. Ive personally seen this act done on many blades, particulary Hejazi Jambiyas (the long bladed ones), whereas the dealer acquires it slightly rusted or blunt, and attempts to re-polish it, and employs a belt sander to do the job, or attempts to re-sharpen it, and grinds it on a bench grinder. Ive encountered one dealer who was showing me a jambiya, boasting his "beautiful" restoration job on the blade, whereas he had actually destroyed it. Many valuable pieces encounter coming out of the middle east encounter such acts. I wouldnt say though, that the your Kaskara is a tourist piece, or anywhere near recent.

3rd June 2006, 03:40 AM	#25
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi All, Rick; That mark looks like a swallow tail butterfly? I have looked through all my references and can't find anything similar, I will keep looking. Very nice piece BTW. Mark; thank you i really like this kaskara it is one of those swords that "feels" powerful, however next to that masterpiece posted by Valjhun it does seem plain. Valjhun; Of course we knew you didn't think all Sudanese weapons are crude, I was just having a little fun, sorry no offence was intended. . Regarding the tourist attribution to the e-bay piece, It is my understanding that through the 19th and 20th centuries there were many Brits etc. travelling through this region, there used to be a poster on the old forum as well as Dr. Lee who went there and saw many blades for sell to tourists. To explain why i feel this one most likely is one of these; First it is very crudely made with no attempt to finish it, both the blade and hilt. second and the most damning thing is the moons. I have never seen one of these face anything but the edge of the blade (anyone know why?). If you look the face that faces the middle of the blade is also upside down which means it is the correct mirror image and would have been the correct way arround if it faced the edge. Why this was done i don't know possible a quickly rushed piece, possible very poor attention to detail, or possible an insult to the intended buyer? In any event not likely a fact that would go unnoticed by the locals if it was a working piece? Ariel; From what I have read on these, I agree with Mark that these are Islamic influenced and unlikely to be fashioned after crusader pieces. In fact the myth of crusader swords turned into kaskaras is until I see otherwise, just that, A myth. (Exempting the few pieces found in the Alexander armoury as previously noted by Jim, ham and C. Spring). Lew; You have no idea how much I have thought of your piece since you first posted it, it is a treasure. Jeff

3rd June 2006, 04:10 PM	#27
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	British military was transported by sea and the space was very limited. I do not remember where I read it, but the rank-and-file British soldier was allowed to bring home one trunk of luggage sized ~ 2 x2 x4 feet. officers were given much more space. Which means that soldiers were unlikely to bring long swords, only daggers (likely, quite simple), but the officers could get better examples, bigger sizes and transport them back for free. Generals, of course, got THE loot....