British saber believed of Papal Army volunteers

Jim McDougall · 15th May 2021, 11:56 PM

This is another of my 'mystery' swords acquired back in the 1970s. This was among piles of old swords on a table at a gun show, and pretty much simply scoffed at by those circling the table.

I knew of course it was a British M1796 saber, and by Thomas Bate of Birmingham, but I was intrigued by the curious markings scribed on the langet.
C s A
4
43
My thoughts naturally raced toward a Confederate connection in the Civil War, with the CSA markings, but over time, research with authorities proved that to be an optimistic assumption. Apparently aside from Virginia cavalry, hardly any Confederate swords were 'unit marked', and the CSA confined to cast hilts incorporating those letters.

My attention then turned to Spanish colonial, knowing that much of the Mexican military had British arms, and perhaps Carlos IV might be contrived in the letters. This tenuous idea was too quickly disproven.

Years later, in 2003, I was given a brilliant suggestion, that perhaps this was a sword which ended up in the Castel Sant Angelo, in the Vatican in Rome.
This ancient edifice had been a military fortress, prison, and armory, which was undoubtedly used during the campaigns of the 'risorgimento' or wars of unification 1861-1870. In addition to Swiss Guards and protection units, Pope Pius IX, maintained a Papal Army of volunteers and mercenaries.
Among these were Irish volunteers.

Interestingly among these Irish volunteers was Capt. Miles Keogh, who later would fall at the disastrous Battle of the Little Big Horn in Montana in 1876.

It appears this saber, obviously older and surplus, may have been among weapons acquired by the armory, and the CsA and numbers must be rack numbers of as yet unknown denominator.

Another curious feature of this saber is a deliberate square notch at the tip of the blade.

The armory and military use of the Castel Sant Angelo was decommissioned in 1901. Possibly this saber was of the holdings there?

While of course highly speculative, there is reasonable plausibility it would seem. These times in Italian history are very complex, but perhaps there are members out there more familiar with volunteer units who might have been in service in this period and in this Papal Army.

I would be grateful for comments.

PS I may have posted this years ago, so please pardon the new post

fernando · 16th May 2021, 09:40 PM

Jim, this is your sword; you sure know it better than anyone else. But, is it my cataract eyes or there are more letters than the three CSA mentioned ?

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Jim McDougall · 16th May 2021, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, this is your sword; you sure know it better than anyone else. But, is it my cataract eyes or there are more letters than the three CSA mentioned ?

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.

More to my terrible photography, and when the opportunity comes, I will get a more efficient image.
As noted, this dilemma has been discussed and looked into by many authoritarian figures over the years, in one instance this langet and markings published in a well known arms magazine.
There is no doubt, the characters are as described:
CsA
4
43

The Cs...the s is in superscript, small letter above the line.
Castel sant Angelo

The 4 it seems is some sort of perhaps unit denomination, but in a wildly tenuous note, the armory in the Castel sant Angelo is on the 4th floor.
Admittedly probably not anything, but noted just the same.

In some research years ago, there seemed some possibility of this having to do with a segment of the units in the volunteer battalions. Again, pure speculation with research wanting.

The 43 then is most likely of course a rack number.

British military markings on swords often followed similar configurations in early 19th century.

The fact that this is what was then an obsolete pattern, these were sold off in huge numbers, as well as distributed to yeomanry units, so in either case may have ended up as sold off supply, or acquired by the volunteers who elected to go to protect the Vatican. From what I have understood, these were Catholic veterans not only from Ireland, but other countries as well.

fernando · 17th May 2021, 09:21 PM

Duly noted, Jim.
Not that the 'extra' letter i thought i dscerned (a A ), would be unmatching to your considering the marks provenance.
Yet on the other hand, the Castel Sant'Angelo rack number hypothesis you are digging into, doesn't sound plausible to me; usually a rack number refers to a row and line in the racks, and not to the floor where the rack is kept. For such case, you would have to have three letters (digits) in the marks, in case these were placed in more than one floor which, as you know, only the 4th floor was used for the purpose. However this is quite a riddle per se. It is no easy job to distinguish the concept between armoury (remnants) kept there from early ages, some now exhibited in noawadays museum, and that put up in much later times, when the castel became a classic barracks; many centuries in between.
But to keep your flame burning, i can tell you that Pius IX 'crack corp' of foreigners was comprised of 4.592 men, including 135 Canadians and 14 Americans, the so called Zouaves; as if one of those brought your sword to the Americas.
Just en passant and, as you probably know, Castel Sant'Angelo (originally Hadrian’s tomb) is not situated in(side) the Vatican, but near the Tiber River 2,600 feet from the Vatican city. Pope Nicholas III had the brilliant idea to build the famous Passeto di Borgo, an hidden elevated covered corridor, through where the Popes and their guard would flee to the castle when things became hot. I have visited he Castel/Museum in 2010, but didn't access the corridor

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Jim McDougall · 18th May 2021, 02:16 AM

Thank you for the detailed explanation on the Zouaves and this provides interesting insights into these volunteer forces for the Pope. Also most interesting about the bridge leading into the Castel sant Angelo.

I agree with your analysis of the numbers on the langet, as I noted, it would be wildly tenuous to suggest the central '4' to represent a floor number in this building, even though that was where the armory was located.
The '43' however, does meet the 'rack' or 'issue' standard, as has been the case on many other ranks weapons.

15th May 2021, 11:56 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	British saber believed of Papal Army volunteers This is another of my 'mystery' swords acquired back in the 1970s. This was among piles of old swords on a table at a gun show, and pretty much simply scoffed at by those circling the table. I knew of course it was a British M1796 saber, and by Thomas Bate of Birmingham, but I was intrigued by the curious markings scribed on the langet. C s A 4 43 My thoughts naturally raced toward a Confederate connection in the Civil War, with the CSA markings, but over time, research with authorities proved that to be an optimistic assumption. Apparently aside from Virginia cavalry, hardly any Confederate swords were 'unit marked', and the CSA confined to cast hilts incorporating those letters. My attention then turned to Spanish colonial, knowing that much of the Mexican military had British arms, and perhaps Carlos IV might be contrived in the letters. This tenuous idea was too quickly disproven. Years later, in 2003, I was given a brilliant suggestion, that perhaps this was a sword which ended up in the Castel Sant Angelo, in the Vatican in Rome. This ancient edifice had been a military fortress, prison, and armory, which was undoubtedly used during the campaigns of the 'risorgimento' or wars of unification 1861-1870. In addition to Swiss Guards and protection units, Pope Pius IX, maintained a Papal Army of volunteers and mercenaries. Among these were Irish volunteers. Interestingly among these Irish volunteers was Capt. Miles Keogh, who later would fall at the disastrous Battle of the Little Big Horn in Montana in 1876. It appears this saber, obviously older and surplus, may have been among weapons acquired by the armory, and the CsA and numbers must be rack numbers of as yet unknown denominator. Another curious feature of this saber is a deliberate square notch at the tip of the blade. The armory and military use of the Castel Sant Angelo was decommissioned in 1901. Possibly this saber was of the holdings there? While of course highly speculative, there is reasonable plausibility it would seem. These times in Italian history are very complex, but perhaps there are members out there more familiar with volunteer units who might have been in service in this period and in this Papal Army. I would be grateful for comments. PS I may have posted this years ago, so please pardon the new post Attached Images

16th May 2021, 09:40 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jim, this is your sword; you sure know it better than anyone else. But, is it my cataract eyes or there are more letters than the three CSA mentioned ? . . Attached Images

18th May 2021, 02:16 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Thank you for the detailed explanation on the Zouaves and this provides interesting insights into these volunteer forces for the Pope. Also most interesting about the bridge leading into the Castel sant Angelo. I agree with your analysis of the numbers on the langet, as I noted, it would be wildly tenuous to suggest the central '4' to represent a floor number in this building, even though that was where the armory was located. The '43' however, does meet the 'rack' or 'issue' standard, as has been the case on many other ranks weapons.