IDENTIFICACION

Fernando K · 1st August 2012, 02:38 AM

Hello

David · 1st August 2012, 09:04 PM

Hello back attcha! I presume there is more to this though. Did you mean to attach a photo for ID?

fernando · 1st August 2012, 10:08 PM

Hola Fernando.
No hay fotos ni palabras ?

Fernando K · 2nd August 2012, 11:42 PM

Hi all

Request assistance in identifying this artifact which exists in a Historical Museum, is a revolver with a cylinder containing 20 sockets, center fire. triggered by means of a rope.

Affectionately. Fernando K

cannonmn · 3rd August 2012, 05:43 AM

Many of these made their way to the U.S. via Francis Bannerman and Sons, the famous early military surplus dealer. You should find them in the old catalogs which abound both in original and reprint form. I don't know what Bannerman said of them, but a US dealer I asked told me they were used in the bows of small landing boats when conducting an amphibious assault. They are supposedly of French or Belgian manufacture. I've seen enough of them at U.S. antique gun shows to think that Bannerman must have imported at least several, if not dozens of these odd weapons.

Jim McDougall · 3rd August 2012, 10:54 PM

It seems Ive seen or heard of these smallboat guns, and Bannerman was always a relatively little known denominator in the huge volume of surplus and 'acquired' arms in the early days of the 20th c. past WWII.
What came to mind for me was the bizarre rotating drum gun used by Christopher Walken in his 1981 movie "Dogs of War".

Apparantly this 'street sweeper' type gun (in the movie the fictional XM-18) was based on a 1936 development by Charles Manville in France, originally for 12, 12 guage shotgun rounds, but stated actually for tear gas grenades and flares. Later a 25mm version with 18rounds was developed for grenades however because of its weight loaded, was scrapped by 1943.

The movie sparked interest in these attention getting weapons, and a Frankford Armory began production of a version as seen attached with the movie poster for "Dogs of War".

Unclear on what weapon actually was used in those boats, but of course multiple and rotating barrel arms have been around since medieval times so not surprising..but would sure like to know more of them. Not really sure if this gun is one of the old 'Manville's' but possibly.

Berkley · 4th August 2012, 12:02 AM

Here is the listing from the 1927 Bannerman Catalog - not very helpful in terms of origin, and implying that the one pictured and "sold to a collector" is one of a kind.

kisak · 1st September 2012, 05:29 AM

Could there perhaps be some relationship with Puckle's "Defence gun"?

Fernando K · 8th April 2021, 07:35 PM

Hello

Looking at a Hermmann Historica catalog, I found a similar revolver, but of German construction. According to the text, it is a revolver of salvos, built for a representation of a battle at sea, around 1900, a spectacle. See the text

Affectionately

fernando · 14th April 2021, 06:01 PM

Muy interesante ...

.

Dmitry · 15th April 2021, 07:12 PM

Fernando K, is the barrel smoothbore, or rifled?

fernando · 15th April 2021, 07:20 PM

They only fired blanks in these events, as is written. How would rifles be of any use ?

Dmitry · 15th April 2021, 07:33 PM

Do you see the inside of the muzzle on these photos? The answer is NO.
I'm asking a person who ostensibly has access to the piece in question. Do you have access to this revolver?

fernando · 15th April 2021, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Do you see the inside of the muzzle on these photos? The answer is NO.
I'm asking a person who ostensibly has access to the piece in question. Do you have access to this revolver?

What could be wrong with you, Dmitry ... having a bad day ? I am confused with your statement over "a person who is ostensibly in access to the piece in question". You might have noticed that what Fernando K uploaded was a PDF of a play gun in an auction ... which i copy/pasted for easier view.
Have a nice and safe weekend.

.

Dmitry · 15th April 2021, 09:29 PM

I think everyone can see that the HH gun and the one in the museum are not the same.
Fernando K, is the muzzle bored all the way through?

fernando · 16th April 2021, 11:10 AM

Two things bring my attention in this so called ship revolver.
- The weight; why would a gun of small dimensions weigh 3,850 grams ? This is the weighjt of some rifles.
-The marks; would the double crowned U and the cylinder inscription be those for blanks, as the caption claims to be? Would the 2 gr stand for 2 grams of gunpowder ?

.

corrado26 · 16th April 2021, 11:43 AM

The "U" under a crown is the German blackpowder proofmark used since 1891 until 1939. 2gNGP = 2g Neues Gewehr Pulver = New Gun Powder

fernando · 16th April 2021, 12:41 PM

Great info, Udo

.

Dmitry · 29th April 2021, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

The "U" under a crown is the German blackpowder proofmark used since 1891 until 1939. 2gNGP = 2g Neues Gewehr Pulver = New Gun Powder

If Neues refers to smokeless gunpowder, then 2 grams is a substantial amount.
2 grams is 31 grains. For reference, a 9 mm Luger round takes 5 grains of smokeless powder.
I am still curious about this revolver. There are no sights on any of these examples. There appears to be no provision for mounting it on a stock or stabilizing it somehow. The trigger is for distance pulling. A possibility is a burglar alarm, triggered by opening of doors or windows. 20 discharges is a lot though, for any burglar alarm.
If this was, as HH describes it, a gun for some kind of naval theatrics, it would've been designed to look like a cannon, not a giant revolver.

corrado26 · 30th April 2021, 08:21 AM

If you look at the photo, there is behind de 2g NGP an M/71, so this was certainly not a nitro based powder but always still black powder. First nitro cartidges in Germany came in 1888 with the infantry rifle M/88.

fernando · 30th April 2021, 11:24 AM

This HH example has a cylinder for 12 capsules with a considerable caliber (over 14 mm).
Could it be that 2 gr stands for 2 grains and not 2 grams. In any case, if this gun was made to shoot blanks, the amount of powder would be (much) less than for shooting a projectile; notwithstanding it needed to be noisy for the show purpose.
We ignore how these pistols were positioned in their niche; could be that they were introduced through some kind of orifice in that only the fairly long barrels stood out the boat hull, thus giving the impression of a cannon, as the HH caption seems to suggest.

CSinTX · 30th April 2021, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

We ignore how these pistols were positioned in their niche; could be that they were introduced through some kind of orifice in that only the fairly long barrels stood out the boat hull, thus giving the impression of a cannon, as the HH caption seems to suggest.

Seems possible. The barrels do have a stepped profile similar to a ship's cannon.

Its probably safe to say that the trigger was pulled with a string. All examples have a loop at the bottom of the trigger for attachment.

fernando · 30th April 2021, 04:27 PM

Yes; not only the barrels of both examples have the same (cannon) shape but also their 'stocks' are made to mount in the same type of bed. Definitely both served the same purpose

Dmitry · 1st May 2021, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

If you look at the photo, there is behind de 2g NGP an M/71, so this was certainly not a nitro based powder but always still black powder. First nitro cartidges in Germany came in 1888 with the infantry rifle M/88.

What does the Neues stand for in this context, if it's not smokeless, but black powder, as you wrote? Was it a new standard for the black powder? Continuing onto the HH lot itself, if this revolver was designated as the Model 1871, doesn't it mean that it was intended for official state business? Also, if the HH auction description is to be believed, then by the time this were used for some kind of war games ca.1900, it was already about 30 years old.
One idea I have about this HH revolver is that it was used in a clock, and would fire a round on the hour mark. 12 chambers make sense in that context.
2 gr. meaning grains, not grams, briefly crossed my mind also, but I doubt that Germans measured the weight of their gunpowder in English terms.

fernando · 1st May 2021, 06:57 PM

Dmitry, you have a new PM.

fernando · 2nd May 2021, 11:53 AM

Having checked a few sites where wizards discuss these things one may find that:
NGP M71 (Neues Gewehr Pulver) is an improved version of black powder developed for the Mauser rifle 1871.
So ...
The model of these (HH) revolvers doesn't have to be as old as from 1871, but instead the type of gunpowder to produce the effect needed; big bangs with blank ammo. Also in this case, i guess, 2 grams of this powder would be a plausible dosis, considering the fairly large cartridges used.

Fernando K · 13th May 2021, 01:36 PM

Hi Dimitry and everyone

The recent problem in the vikingsword page has prevented me from participating. To Dimitry's question, he replied that I have only had access to the photograph of the revolver, taken by a friend employed at the Museum. I cannot tell if the barrel is scratched, and there is no cartridge either. But note that there are no marksmanship, which indicates that it was only for firing salvos. Interesting is the dialogue that was achieved by the composition of the gunpowder. I humbly suggest that someone write to the experts at Hermann Historica to find out more. My ignorance of the German language prevents me from doing so.

Affectionately

1st August 2012, 02:38 AM	#1
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	IDENTIFICACION Hello

2nd August 2012, 11:42 PM	#4
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hi all Request assistance in identifying this artifact which exists in a Historical Museum, is a revolver with a cylinder containing 20 sockets, center fire. triggered by means of a rope. Affectionately. Fernando K Attached Images

3rd August 2012, 10:54 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	It seems Ive seen or heard of these smallboat guns, and Bannerman was always a relatively little known denominator in the huge volume of surplus and 'acquired' arms in the early days of the 20th c. past WWII. What came to mind for me was the bizarre rotating drum gun used by Christopher Walken in his 1981 movie "Dogs of War". Apparantly this 'street sweeper' type gun (in the movie the fictional XM-18) was based on a 1936 development by Charles Manville in France, originally for 12, 12 guage shotgun rounds, but stated actually for tear gas grenades and flares. Later a 25mm version with 18rounds was developed for grenades however because of its weight loaded, was scrapped by 1943. The movie sparked interest in these attention getting weapons, and a Frankford Armory began production of a version as seen attached with the movie poster for "Dogs of War". Unclear on what weapon actually was used in those boats, but of course multiple and rotating barrel arms have been around since medieval times so not surprising..but would sure like to know more of them. Not really sure if this gun is one of the old 'Manville's' but possibly. Attached Images

4th August 2012, 12:02 AM	#7
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Here is the listing from the 1927 Bannerman Catalog - not very helpful in terms of origin, and implying that the one pictured and "sold to a collector" is one of a kind. Attached Images

14th April 2021, 06:01 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Muy interesante ... . Attached Images

1st August 2012, 09:04 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,119	Hello back attcha! I presume there is more to this though. Did you mean to attach a photo for ID?

1st August 2012, 10:08 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hola Fernando. No hay fotos ni palabras ?

3rd August 2012, 05:43 AM	#5
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Many of these made their way to the U.S. via Francis Bannerman and Sons, the famous early military surplus dealer. You should find them in the old catalogs which abound both in original and reprint form. I don't know what Bannerman said of them, but a US dealer I asked told me they were used in the bows of small landing boats when conducting an amphibious assault. They are supposedly of French or Belgian manufacture. I've seen enough of them at U.S. antique gun shows to think that Bannerman must have imported at least several, if not dozens of these odd weapons.

1st September 2012, 05:29 AM	#8
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	Could there perhaps be some relationship with Puckle's "Defence gun"?

15th April 2021, 07:12 PM	#11
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Fernando K, is the barrel smoothbore, or rifled?

15th April 2021, 07:20 PM	#12
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	They only fired blanks in these events, as is written. How would rifles be of any use ?

15th April 2021, 07:33 PM	#13
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Do you see the inside of the muzzle on these photos? The answer is NO. I'm asking a person who ostensibly has access to the piece in question. Do you have access to this revolver?

15th April 2021, 09:29 PM	#15
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	I think everyone can see that the HH gun and the one in the museum are not the same. Fernando K, is the muzzle bored all the way through?

16th April 2021, 11:10 AM	#16
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Two things bring my attention in this so called ship revolver. - The weight; why would a gun of small dimensions weigh 3,850 grams ? This is the weighjt of some rifles. -The marks; would the double crowned U and the cylinder inscription be those for blanks, as the caption claims to be? Would the 2 gr stand for 2 grams of gunpowder ? . Attached Images

16th April 2021, 11:43 AM	#17
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	The "U" under a crown is the German blackpowder proofmark used since 1891 until 1939. 2gNGP = 2g Neues Gewehr Pulver = New Gun Powder

16th April 2021, 12:41 PM	#18
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Great info, Udo .

30th April 2021, 08:21 AM	#20
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	If you look at the photo, there is behind de 2g NGP an M/71, so this was certainly not a nitro based powder but always still black powder. First nitro cartidges in Germany came in 1888 with the infantry rifle M/88.

30th April 2021, 11:24 AM	#21
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	This HH example has a cylinder for 12 capsules with a considerable caliber (over 14 mm). Could it be that 2 gr stands for 2 grains and not 2 grams. In any case, if this gun was made to shoot blanks, the amount of powder would be (much) less than for shooting a projectile; notwithstanding it needed to be noisy for the show purpose. We ignore how these pistols were positioned in their niche; could be that they were introduced through some kind of orifice in that only the fairly long barrels stood out the boat hull, thus giving the impression of a cannon, as the HH caption seems to suggest.

30th April 2021, 04:27 PM	#23
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Yes; not only the barrels of both examples have the same (cannon) shape but also their 'stocks' are made to mount in the same type of bed. Definitely both served the same purpose

1st May 2021, 06:57 PM	#25
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Dmitry, you have a new PM.

2nd May 2021, 11:53 AM	#26
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Having checked a few sites where wizards discuss these things one may find that: NGP M71 (Neues Gewehr Pulver) is an improved version of black powder developed for the Mauser rifle 1871. So ... The model of these (HH) revolvers doesn't have to be as old as from 1871, but instead the type of gunpowder to produce the effect needed; big bangs with blank ammo. Also in this case, i guess, 2 grams of this powder would be a plausible dosis, considering the fairly large cartridges used.

13th May 2021, 01:36 PM	#27
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hi Dimitry and everyone The recent problem in the vikingsword page has prevented me from participating. To Dimitry's question, he replied that I have only had access to the photograph of the revolver, taken by a friend employed at the Museum. I cannot tell if the barrel is scratched, and there is no cartridge either. But note that there are no marksmanship, which indicates that it was only for firing salvos. Interesting is the dialogue that was achieved by the composition of the gunpowder. I humbly suggest that someone write to the experts at Hermann Historica to find out more. My ignorance of the German language prevents me from doing so. Affectionately