Burmese Dha & Javanese Badik

Aurangzeb · 25th May 2006, 05:04 AM

Hello All!

I have managed to get a nice little Burmese Dha, the hilt is made of good hardwood that has a nice glow and the a nice thick steel blade, the "guard' is well fitted brass. I think it is late 19th. century. The Javanese Badik is made primarily of wood that has a nice glow from age and the blade is good quality steel with some nice carving toward the rear of the blade. I think that this to is late 19th. century. I bought the Badik from Artzi and he says it's javanese so I won't doubt him. But I am curious what the difference between say a javanese badik as opposed to a Malaysian badik? Any comments on either knife is welcome!

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 27th May 2006, 01:08 AM

No comments?

Aurangzeb · 27th May 2006, 10:45 PM

Strange

Lew · 27th May 2006, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurangzeb

Strange

As far as I can tell it may be the fluting in the blade? I am not that well schooled in badiks. It is also a holiday weekend so you may not get too many replies until Tuesday. Btw what is the difference between a badik and a sewar?

Lew

Tim Simmons · 27th May 2006, 11:05 PM

Hello Mark this knife has a similar outline as yours. I suspect there are more unusual things to come as the Burma veterans leave this world

.

kai · 28th May 2006, 03:35 AM

Hello Mark,

This seems to be a nice Sekin blade from the Padang Highlands - so it's most certainly Sumatran rather than from Java. Please post more pics of the base of the blade as well as the fullers!

I'd guess this got rehilted & a new scabbard in Badek-fashion a while back.

Regards,
Kai

Aurangzeb · 28th May 2006, 05:24 AM

Hello Kai!

I have never heard of this type of knife. Very interesting! From the link below better pictures can be seen. Thanks!
Mark...

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1513

Aurangzeb · 28th May 2006, 11:26 PM

ASlmost forgot, what whoud the normal dressing for the sekin be?

Aurangzeb · 29th May 2006, 09:17 PM

Do I have the age of the Burmese Dha right? How whould it be worn?

kai · 30th May 2006, 01:04 AM

Hello Mark,

Quote:

I have never heard of this type of knife.

If you're seriously into Indonesian blades, you need to get Albert van Zonneveld's book.

Quote:

From the link below better pictures can be seen.

Good catch - it's rare to get not fully appraised stuff from Artzi...

Quote:

what whoud the normal dressing for the sekin be?

Not too different - how's the fit of the scabbard? (Could be more slender/graceful.)

The traditional sekin hilt looks more like those rencong hilts without L-shaped bend (i.e. hulu puntung) and, especially, the somewhat intermediate hulu dandan. Although the sekin blade does not have that forged stem-ring, I think there could be a relationship between these weapons. However, the rencong hilts are all curved towards the back of the blade whereas the sekin hilt (apparently representing a very stylised bird's head) curves towards the edge similar as with a sewar.

Regards,
Kai

Aurangzeb · 30th May 2006, 03:13 AM

Hello Kai!

"Good catch - it's rare to get not fully appraised stuff from Artzi..."
I know when I first heard that Artzi might have made a mistake I was in a state of disbelief!

It fits in the scabbard very nicely, not to tight not to loose, just right. Thanks for the information on the Sekin! I noticed that rencongs have a similer little decoration near the back of the blade.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=rencong

Mark...

P.S.-I can only imagine how it got into it's most recent dressing!

Mark · 30th May 2006, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurangzeb

Do I have the age of the Burmese Dha right? How whould it be worn?

Yes, I would say you probably do. It is so hard to tell between a well-worn recent knife and a well-preserved old knife, but IMO the obviously hand-forged blade, coupled with the fine quality of the fittings (by which I mean it is neither something someone pounded out in a mountain village, nor a modern mass- or semi-mass-produced blade), point to that age more or less.

I haven't studied the dagger-length dha (dha-hmyaung) as much as the swords, but the style seems very universal in the entire region. From what I have seen recently, though, the Burman ones do not have guards, while the Thai ones tend to.

As for how it would have been worn -- no idea. In the north the Shan/Tai Yuan wear their dha-hmyaung suspended from their belt by a cord, a minature version of the baldric used for swords. However, I have never seen a cord hanger in this, more southern, style, which makes me suspect that it would be worn in a manner more like that of a keris or badik - tucked directly into the sash. I am, of course, open to correction.

Aurangzeb · 2nd June 2006, 04:12 AM

Thanks! So this is a Burmese dha-hmyaung from the late 19th century.

Mark...

PUFF · 2nd June 2006, 07:32 AM

In Thailand, such a knife are mostly used in the same way as an amulet (protect one from evil) or as a ceremonial knife. They are supposed to be blessed by a medic (shaman or monk). Mark called this one as priest knives. In Thai, they are called Meed Morh (literally means medic 's knives).

(Note: this pic is upside-down, so all the knives have downward hilt)

http://images.google.co.th/images?q=...r=&sa=N&tab=wi

Beside the Meed Morh, there are other utility knives/weapons with similar downward hilt.

Meed Eneb or Meed Hneb, utility knives. They have noticable big belly, design for chopping action.

Meed PraDae (Thai for Badik), a personal utility knife/weapon. Were used 3-400 years ago. There are many example from late Ayuthaya period but it 's possible that the knives were used in the older time.

Meed ChaiThong, literally means flag-tip knives. Nothing related with flag but its shape. The extend of base might be kind of evolved keris 's Ganja.

Aurangzeb · 8th June 2006, 04:33 AM

Thanks for all the help with the Sumatran Sekin and the Burmese Dha-Hmyaung!

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 10th June 2006, 12:58 AM

Oh onelast thing does anyone have a example I cam see of what the guard on the Thai dha looks like as opposed to the Burmese guard. and if mine is Burmese as opposed to Thai. here is a link to a piece Artzi identified as probably Thai but the handle is different than mine and one with a similer hilt from Burma but the blade is different.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1988
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=116

Mark...

Mark · 10th June 2006, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurangzeb

Oh onelast thing does anyone have a example I cam see of what the guard on the Thai dha looks like as opposed to the Burmese guard. and if mine is Burmese as opposed to Thai. here is a link to a piece Artzi identified as probably Thai but the handle is different than mine and one with a similer hilt from Burma but the blade is different.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1988
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=116

Mark...

Well ... ::sigh:: ... to be perfectly honest, it is really hard to tell. At least for those of us who are not Thai or Burmese.

I think Artzi is right about the Burmese attribution for the second one because the decor of the handle is a very classic Burmese motif. Not long ago I would have said the first one was Burmese, too, but now I am seeing Thai examples that are very similar. My thinking at the moment is that they are used all over the area and that there is no strong stylistic distinction between a Burman, a Thai or a Shan (Tai Yuan) knife. There are clearly some styles that are particular to one group or the other, but this doesn't seem to be one them.

Lifeguard!!! I'm drowning over here .... !!!

Aurangzeb · 10th June 2006, 06:33 AM

Hello Mark!

Confusing!

I think for simplicity sake I will still call it Burmese because of the hilt shape and the guard until some hard evidence surfaces saying Thai, Thanks for the help!

Mark...

PUFF · 10th June 2006, 02:55 PM

#1 The fuller run to the tip 's not typical Thai style. The style 's mostly found on Burmese blades.

#2 The circle mark with radial dots looks Burmese to me.

#3 The brass parts on the scabbard 's not precised Thai-Lanna style.

I vote to Burmese

Aurangzeb · 10th June 2006, 03:46 PM

Hello PUFF!

It seems you have shed a great deal of light on this matter of identification. Thank You!

I guess since the similarity between mine and the one Artzi show means that mine is Burmese too.

Mark...

ThePepperSkull · 14th March 2012, 08:40 AM

The Meed Eneb has gained popularity in recent years and in western blade collecting contexts has been referred to as the "Thai E-nep"

Here are a couple of examples made by a contemporary smith named Bun Hom. His are some of the more popular as his blades apparently hold an edge better than your average market blade because of how the blades are made. These pieces are forged out of 5160 steel, heat treated, clay-coated, and then oil-quenched for a hard edge. He has a waiting list of over a year (I was on the waitlist for 15 months before acquiring mine) because of how well his blades hold up to tough use.

The top one is a modern design made for forest rangers and the bottom one is, according to Santi (who helps Bun Hom with his blade making business), a more traditional shape:

27th May 2006, 11:05 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hello Mark this knife has a similar outline as yours. I suspect there are more unusual things to come as the Burma veterans leave this world . Attached Images

29th May 2006, 09:17 PM	#9
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Do I have the age of the Burmese Dha right? How whould it be worn? Last edited by Aurangzeb; 29th May 2006 at 09:27 PM.

30th May 2006, 03:13 AM	#11
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Kai! "Good catch - it's rare to get not fully appraised stuff from Artzi..." I know when I first heard that Artzi might have made a mistake I was in a state of disbelief! It fits in the scabbard very nicely, not to tight not to loose, just right. Thanks for the information on the Sekin! I noticed that rencongs have a similer little decoration near the back of the blade. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=rencong Mark... P.S.-I can only imagine how it got into it's most recent dressing! Last edited by Aurangzeb; 30th May 2006 at 03:30 AM.

10th June 2006, 12:58 AM	#16
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Oh onelast thing does anyone have a example I cam see of what the guard on the Thai dha looks like as opposed to the Burmese guard. and if mine is Burmese as opposed to Thai. here is a link to a piece Artzi identified as probably Thai but the handle is different than mine and one with a similer hilt from Burma but the blade is different. http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1988 http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=116 Mark... Last edited by Aurangzeb; 10th June 2006 at 03:23 AM.

10th June 2006, 03:46 PM	#20
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello PUFF! It seems you have shed a great deal of light on this matter of identification. Thank You! I guess since the similarity between mine and the one Artzi show means that mine is Burmese too. Mark... Last edited by Aurangzeb; 10th June 2006 at 05:04 PM.

25th May 2006, 05:04 AM	#1
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Burmese Dha & Javanese Badik Hello All! I have managed to get a nice little Burmese Dha, the hilt is made of good hardwood that has a nice glow and the a nice thick steel blade, the "guard' is well fitted brass. I think it is late 19th. century. The Javanese Badik is made primarily of wood that has a nice glow from age and the blade is good quality steel with some nice carving toward the rear of the blade. I think that this to is late 19th. century. I bought the Badik from Artzi and he says it's javanese so I won't doubt him. But I am curious what the difference between say a javanese badik as opposed to a Malaysian badik? Any comments on either knife is welcome! Mark... Attached Images

27th May 2006, 01:08 AM	#2
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	No comments?

27th May 2006, 10:45 PM	#3
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Strange

28th May 2006, 03:35 AM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Mark, This seems to be a nice Sekin blade from the Padang Highlands - so it's most certainly Sumatran rather than from Java. Please post more pics of the base of the blade as well as the fullers! I'd guess this got rehilted & a new scabbard in Badek-fashion a while back. Regards, Kai

28th May 2006, 05:24 AM	#7
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Kai! I have never heard of this type of knife. Very interesting! From the link below better pictures can be seen. Thanks! Mark... http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1513

28th May 2006, 11:26 PM	#8
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	ASlmost forgot, what whoud the normal dressing for the sekin be?

2nd June 2006, 04:12 AM	#13
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Thanks! So this is a Burmese dha-hmyaung from the late 19th century. Mark...

2nd June 2006, 07:32 AM	#14
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	In Thailand, such a knife are mostly used in the same way as an amulet (protect one from evil) or as a ceremonial knife. They are supposed to be blessed by a medic (shaman or monk). Mark called this one as priest knives. In Thai, they are called Meed Morh (literally means medic 's knives). (Note: this pic is upside-down, so all the knives have downward hilt) http://images.google.co.th/images?q=...r=&sa=N&tab=wi Beside the Meed Morh, there are other utility knives/weapons with similar downward hilt. Meed Eneb or Meed Hneb, utility knives. They have noticable big belly, design for chopping action. Meed PraDae (Thai for Badik), a personal utility knife/weapon. Were used 3-400 years ago. There are many example from late Ayuthaya period but it 's possible that the knives were used in the older time. Meed ChaiThong, literally means flag-tip knives. Nothing related with flag but its shape. The extend of base might be kind of evolved keris 's Ganja.

8th June 2006, 04:33 AM	#15
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Thanks for all the help with the Sumatran Sekin and the Burmese Dha-Hmyaung! Mark...

10th June 2006, 06:33 AM	#18
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Mark! Confusing! I think for simplicity sake I will still call it Burmese because of the hilt shape and the guard until some hard evidence surfaces saying Thai, Thanks for the help! Mark...

10th June 2006, 02:55 PM	#19
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	#1 The fuller run to the tip 's not typical Thai style. The style 's mostly found on Burmese blades. #2 The circle mark with radial dots looks Burmese to me. #3 The brass parts on the scabbard 's not precised Thai-Lanna style. I vote to Burmese

14th March 2012, 08:40 AM	#21
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	The Meed Eneb has gained popularity in recent years and in western blade collecting contexts has been referred to as the "Thai E-nep" Here are a couple of examples made by a contemporary smith named Bun Hom. His are some of the more popular as his blades apparently hold an edge better than your average market blade because of how the blades are made. These pieces are forged out of 5160 steel, heat treated, clay-coated, and then oil-quenched for a hard edge. He has a waiting list of over a year (I was on the waitlist for 15 months before acquiring mine) because of how well his blades hold up to tough use. The top one is a modern design made for forest rangers and the bottom one is, according to Santi (who helps Bun Hom with his blade making business), a more traditional shape: Attached Images Last edited by ThePepperSkull; 14th March 2012 at 08:53 AM.