DOEHOENG KASOENDAN (A Soenda Perspective)

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you very much Amuk, I now understand perfectly, a quick phone call did it for me.

Basa Jero in Basa Sunda can be understood as extremely refined language that will only be understood by a select group of people, a little bit like university undergraduates, or perhaps some members of the British upper class, who use unknown and archaic language forms to impress their fellows.

The other way it can be understood is as a refined jargon, again only comprehensible to members of the group who use that jargon.

The above is pretty much word for word how Basa Jero Sunda was just explained to me, and from what you have just told us about the reason for being of Basa Sunda Jero, then the explanation I have just been given seems to be pretty accurate, in essence it is an archaic jargon that was at one time used by officialdom.

In English "Basa Sunda Jero" can be understood as "Inside Language", in the sense of a select language not meant to be understood by everybody, as I was told, a jargon the purpose of which was to keep secret those things that outsiders should not know.

In fact, it cannot be compared to either Kromo Inggil or Kromo Madyo, which are distinct hierarchical forms of Formal Modern Javanese.

Thank you very much, I really do value knowing this, because over a very long time I have spent a very great deal of time researching some of things you have written, at times I have felt that I was getting close to solving the mystery, when I would discover a word you used in Classical Malay, or in Bahasa Madura, but these were false leads, they never went anywhere.

Now I believe I understand perfectly why these leads were all dead ends.

Again I offer you my most sincere thanks.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Another doehoeng just to share with anyone interested.
Enjoy!

Name: Sang Poetjoek Oemoen
Desc: Sampana Leres 9Eloek GALOEHPANGAOEBAN
Char: Koekoedoeng , djalwan , pentil , ladjer.
Blade: LxOALxWxT=36.5x43.5x8.96x1.18cm.
Handle: Filigreed white-metal w/ red-stones Pralamba Boeta Para Doeka
Wt: 163g.
Sheath: Wood Djoeng Golekan w/ embossed soeasa o/sheath

Apologies should the photo not be correct on your screen.

Best

[Jean]

Hello Amuk,
Thank you for the pic of this interesting piece again! Some comments or questions please:
. The blade looks much older that the hilt and scabbard. This type of hilt is apparently made in Lombok, or perhaps Bali or Sumbawa?
. This style of pendok overlapping on the atasan is fequently seen these days but is it an original design?
. Koekoedoeng = Kembang kacang, djalwan = jalen, pentil = pejetan, and ladjer = greneng
Regards

[Jean]

Hello Amuk,
A similar hilt to yours fitted on a new kris from Sumbawa (courtesy of PdV).
Regards

[JBG163]

Amuk, i can't pm you sadly ? Can you send me an email please ? Thanks

[jagabuwana]

Comments: Taroem(=indigo) is traditionally identified with Soenda, hence the band.

Kang Amuk, I am interested to learn more about the association between tarum and Sunda. Do you have any resources, or perhaps you can share more yourself?

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo Alan,

"In English "Basa Sunda Jero" can be understood as "Inside Language", in the sense of a select language not meant to be understood by everybody, as I was told, a jargon the purpose of which was to keep secret those things that outsiders should not know.

In fact, it cannot be compared to either Kromo Inggil or Kromo Madyo, which are distinct hierarchical forms of Formal Modern Javanese."


To be more specific, it is the equivalent of Djawa Bagongan.


Hullo Jean,

". The blade looks much older that the hilt and scabbard. This type of hilt is apparently made in Lombok, or perhaps Bali or Sumbawa?"

The blade is the ‘heart’, so ‘dress’ is not important and may see many changes throughout the blade’s life.
The hilt COULD have been made in the lesser Soenda islands.
The main difference between your example and mine: yours appears to be more stereotypical Bugis, with a hair-clasp/bledegan and greater proportion forward-leaning.

". This style of pendok overlapping on the atasan is fequently seen these days but is it an original design?"

I may be wrong, but I don’t think that I have ever seen one from outside western Java. It was designed for practicality. It goes back to at least the 19thC.

". Koekoedoeng = Kembang kacang, djalwan = jalen, pentil = pejetan, and ladjer = greneng"

Koekoedoeng = carina~ toelale, djalwan=stamen~ djalen, pentil = fruitset~ lambej, ladjer= prop~ gandi.

Hullo jagabuwana,

Back in the day, Soenda were known for their indigo dye, Djawa for their red dye, so fabric were sent to different areas to get dyed the right colours.
Back to your question:
CiTAROEM river.
TAROEManagara kingdom.

As has often been pointed out in this forum:
To understand a product, one has to understand the language, the culture and the history of the people who produced it.

Best,

[jagabuwana]

Nuhun, Amuk Murugul. I do agree that to understand something, the language must also be understood. So I'm inclined to go further.

The reason I asked the question about the connection between Sunda and tarum (indigo) is because it is often taken to be self-evident that Sunda culture and lands have long been associated with tarum. As you mention, the river Citarum and the 5th century kingdom of Tarumanagara bear this name, and tarum means indigo in Sundanese today and likely also meant indigo in the local language in the time of Purnawarman

However I've personally only seen fairly modern sources that use the indigo colour to symbolise something Sundanese (let's say 18th century onwards) - and I seem to have trouble locating any sources that indicate the plant, dye or colour being of any symbolic relevance or even as a commodity of note. I am well aware too that we are talking about knowledges and facts pertaining to a Nusantara culture here and so historicity gives way to changing narrative and folkloric belief. Folklore, the passage of time as well as the obvious the meaning of "tarum" has perhaps lent weight to the symbolism of indigo and its connection to Sunda. But historicity in this case provides a richer understanding of the history and etymology behind the tarum in Tarumanagara or Citarum.

For this, Robert Wessing's (2011) Tarumanagara: What's in a name? (Journal of South East Asian Studies, 42:2, pp.325-327) provides a very well argued alternative for the origins of "tarum. Here are some interesting points:

-- There is no evidence to suggest that indigo as a commodity was particularly noteworthy by either Tarumanagara or to the places they exported their commodities to.

-- Tarum is not a word that exists in Sanskrit, but it probably corresponds to the tamil tarumam, which is dharma in Sanskrit. Tarumanagara then likely means something more like The State of Dharma, or Dharma Country. Wessing supports this argument through explaining that Purnawarman's court and city may have been deliberately built to be flanked by canals which were named Candrabagha and Gomati, which are sacred rivers on the Indian subcontinent.

-- Just as Candrabagha and Gomati were the names of existing rivers on the subcontinent, so too is the name "Tarum" in South India (e.g. Tarumapuram, Tarumaputtiran, Tarumaraja). It was likely that the Taruma inclusion was brought over by Tamil Hindu migrants who occupied positions of influence in Tarumanagara.

-- The understanding that the inclusion of the word tarum in Citarum or Tarumanagara originated from the word for indigo is coincidental. The word probably did mean indigo in the local language in 5th century. Indigo was known to grow freely on the banks of the Citarum, and so the double-meaning was accepted and applied.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo jagabuwana,

You asked and I answered. As is usually the case, what I provide is as is, to be taken or dismissed. I don’t engage in debate, I find it too taxing and time-consuming and am rather academically-challenged. I have confidence in my info, until I am provided with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, in which case I will adjust accordingly.
To me, it ultimately boils down to a question of confidence/faith.

Best,

[jagabuwana]

I didn't intend to debate or disprove you, but to add more information and perspective that I found interesting and satisfying, with the hope that others might too.

[David]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo jagabuwana,
You asked and I answered. As is usually the case, what I provide is as is, to be taken or dismissed. I don’t engage in debate, I find it too taxing and time-consuming and am rather academically-challenged. I have confidence in my info, until I am provided with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, in which case I will adjust accordingly.
To me, it ultimately boils down to a question of confidence/faith.

Just a suggestion that you try approaching questions not as arguments or lead-ins to debate, but rather as discussion points. We are, after all, a discussion group. We all learn through conversation and sharing of ideas.
I as well consider myself to be a somewhat academically challenged collector. I hold no degrees in Javanese anthropology or any related fields. This is not to say that the academics are always correct, but it seems odd to so quickly dismiss them in favour of faith when there may, in fact, be new things we can learn from them.
Just for the fun of it, a list of academic papers pertaining to Javanese culture from Robert Wessing.
https://independent.academia.edu/RobertWessing

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

I didn't intend to debate or disprove you, but to add more information and perspective that I found interesting and satisfying, with the hope that others might too.

Hullo jagabuwana,

It appears that I may have been too abrupt and thus been misunderstood.
For that I sincerely apologise. I was merely reiterating what I've often said in this room. No offence was taken. After all, the device on the side-panel states: 'kandel koelit'.
Of course I totally agree with what you stated. I'll happily listen-in at what transpires. I am here to learn.

All the best for the new year!

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by David

Just a suggestion that you try approaching questions not as arguments or lead-ins to debate, but rather as discussion points. We are, after all, a discussion group. We all learn through conversation and sharing of ideas.
I as well consider myself to be a somewhat academically challenged collector. I hold no degrees in Javanese anthropology or any related fields. This is not to say that the academics are always correct, but it seems odd to so quickly dismiss them in favour of faith when there may, in fact, be new things we can learn from them.
Just for the fun of it, a list of academic papers pertaining to Javanese culture from Robert Wessing.
https://independent.academia.edu/RobertWessing

Hullo David,

Firstly, I generally agree with what you have stated.
However:"This is not to say that the academics are always correct, but it seems odd to so quickly dismiss them in favour of faith when there may, in fact, be new things we can learn from them."
If this is taken to apply to me, then I believe that you have misunderstood me.
By 'faith', I mean it in the generic sense.
In decades of research, I have always tried to trace data to their original source. I have found that some authors tend to have faith in their references and accept them as gospel, not checking their veracity; thus propagating any errors which occurred up the line.
So, no, I don't dismiss them. I merely check their veracity.
That's why I have confidence in my results.
I only contribute to a conversation (banter aside) if I think that it may have value, otherwise I am quite happy to sit back, watch and learn.
As an example of what I meant with faith as a bottom line:
People had 'faith' in this particular Nobel Prize scientist, until in a subsequent project, it was found that the scientist had 'manipulated'/'extrapolated' the results.
Similarly when I mention 'agama'. People immediately think 'religion'. My definition of agama: darmasiksa; traditional/holy/teaching doctrine(s).

I apologise for the rant, but I thought some clarification was needed.

All the best for the coming year!

[A. G. Maisey]

As a fully qualified and dedicated cynic I have very few heros, but Sam Arbesman is one of them. In my shortlist, he is probably #1.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Doing some 'house-cleaning'. Thought somebody may appreciate these background pictures before I erase them.
My apologies should they not show up too well on your screen. At least the 'info' is there.

Best,

[Jean]

Thank you very much Amuk, I noticed such a peculiar scabbard in the book "The Kris" by Edward Frey, third edition, page 57, and I wondered about its origin, so is it from West Java? The hilt is reminiscent of the Ganesha hilts from Cirebon but with some differences.
Regards

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Jean

Thank you very much Amuk, I noticed such a peculiar scabbard in the book "The Kris" by Edward Frey, third edition, page 57, and I wondered about its origin, so is it from West Java? The hilt is reminiscent of the Ganesha hilts from Cirebon but with some differences.
Regards

Hullo Jean,
I am sorry to say that I am poverty-stricken wrt bibliography; so I pretty much have to rely on 'fieldwork'. In other words, I have not had access to the book you mention.
As I have previously mentioned in this forum somewhere, the motif on the scabbards represent tree-ferns (Cyathea, bot.). They symbolise the Soenda; 'the highlanders'. So the area covered is western Java (incl. part of Central Java).
The hilt is a stylised vegetal form of Ganesja= Gana Isja= lord of the Ganas, attendants of Siwa.

Best,

[David]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo everybody!

Doing some 'house-cleaning'. Thought somebody may appreciate these background pictures before I erase them.
My apologies should they not show up too well on your screen. At least the 'info' is there.

Best,

Thanks for showing us photos of this rare dress form before eliminating them from your date base. A lovely example. I trust you still have this beautiful keris in your custody?

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by David

Thanks for showing us photos of this rare dress form before eliminating them from your date base. A lovely example. I trust you still have this beautiful keris in your custody?

Hullo David,

I have been rationalising all my traditional/heritage material due to reason of practicality. Whatever is no longer in my ‘core’ collection has been passed on to other koentjen (=pakoentjian=key-keepers, akin to the custodians of story-/song-lines in Australia) for safe-custody. So I still have access to everything. No doubt even the core collection will be passed on, eventually.

Best,

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Thank you very much Amuk, I noticed such a peculiar scabbard in the book "The Kris" by Edward Frey, third edition, page 57, ...

When it is not the same keris we see here!

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo David,

I have been rationalising all my traditional/heritage material due to reason of practicality. Whatever is no longer in my ‘core’ collection has been passed on to other koentjen (=pakoentjian=key-keepers, akin to the custodians of story-/song-lines in Australia) for safe-custody. So I still have access to everything. No doubt even the core collection will be passed on, eventually.

Best,

Hello Amuk,
I (and probably many other Forum members) would love that you publish a book or a pictures catalog of your rare items!
Regards

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Sajen

When it is not the same keris we see here!

Hello Sajen,
Of course the blades are very different but the scabbard and hilt are similar. I can post a pic if required but the original one is very small.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Sajen,
Of course the blades are very different but the scabbard and hilt are similar. I can post a pic if required but the original one is very small.

Hello Jean,

The blade from the first one in Amuks picture we can't see! So it could be very well the same one, who knows.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Whatever is no longer in my ‘core’ collection has been passed on to other koentjen (=pakoentjian=key-keepers, akin to the custodians of story-/song-lines in Australia) for safe-custody. So I still have access to everything. No doubt even the core collection will be passed on, eventually.

Good to know. The sheathed one, as has been noted, looks exactly like the example shown in Frey's book. So close that it does indeed seem to be the same keris.
Anyway, thanks for posting these unusual examples.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jean,

The blade from the first one in Amuks picture we can't see! So it could be very well the same one, who knows.

Regards,
Detlef

No definitely different. The fronds as they radiate out of the center of the wranka are 90 degrees different. The mendaks are not the same as well. But apparently there is a style that is very closely adhered to.

Thank you AM for posting all that you do. I look forward to them. I would love for any information you want to share to get out into the world as well.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

No definitely different. The fronds as they radiate out of the center of the wranka are 90 degrees different. The mendaks are not the same as well. But apparently there is a style that is very closely adhered to.

Yes, you are correct. The picture by Fry is very small, after looking again with better light and a magnifying glass I see the differences. Also the fronds in front of the gandar go down instead of up. I have not the best eyes anymore.

Regards,
Detlef

[Jean]

I attach the pic of the kris from Frey for reference and avoiding confusion in some posts....

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

All seems Quiet On The Western Front ….. hope it’s not a portent of the ‘new-normal’.

A light-hearted look, just for sharing. So please excuse the poor quality. Enjoy!

A SOEMBER For All Reasons ….. (OR: The Long, The Short and The Tall ….. OR: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly).

From left to right:
- ‘secret weapon’
- traditional occasion
- official occasion
- ‘I’ll show you my Pandjang’
- ‘Then I'll show you my Bangkinang’

Best,

[David]

Thanks! A lovely grouping!

[jagabuwana]

Wowzer that last one is just about as long as I've seen any keris. Can you tell us anything more about it?
Interesting handle too - what's the material?