Weapons for animals

[JBG163]

Dear all,

By the thread about elephant Swords, i want to launch another subject, that, i found, awesomly interesting.
What animals weapons do younknow ?
Here we got :
- elephant sword in india

- i know that Indonesian put knifes on cock claws for cock fighting

- also indonesia, goat sword, put in the head of a goat with a harness, in order to figth tiger (king game, where the goat generally die and thé tiger when speared to death After).

Did you know another animals weapons ? Where did they Come from ?

Thanks everybody !

Julien

[Bob A]

I've been known to carry a .44 cal from Smith & Wesson for bear. Does that count?

[Ren Ren]

The weapon was not only active, but also passive
Once upon a time in Europe, wolfhound dogs were worn with wide iron collars (so that the wolf could not grab them by the neck), and for hunting wild boars, dogs wore special armor made of chain mail. Before the Second World War, one instance of such armor was stored in the collection of the Wartburg castle in Germany.

[Jim McDougall]

Julien, this is I agree, a most interesting slant on the study of arms, but it is I'm afraid a bit of a strain in the scope of discussions here, as seen in the somewhat bizarre entries entertained in the elephant sword thread (my bat entry not withstanding ).

Actually the subject is best described as either animals used AS weapons or weapons added TO animals in warfare. Animals are of course usually afforded their own natural weapons, and use these instinctively. Therefore they do not need weapons as used by humans, nor would they be trained in the use of them.

It is ironic however, that early humans learned about weapons from those of the animals around them, and fashioned their own representations of these natural animal weapons, such as tusks, horns, fangs and claws to use in imitation of them.

Early weapons were often comprised of the actual animal parts, or fashioned in imitation of them. Eventually of course, these were fashioned of steel.

Examples of the madu in India, as well as the bichwa, curved blades of the various daggers, and bagh nakh (claws) are of course in mind.

Animals trained in combat such as the war horse were THE weapon, and they kick to unhorse riders, and bite against an enemy. The elephants were less reliable in maintaining the direction of their aggression as far as targets.

Good point by Ren Ren, as passive weapons, much like armor, were for defense. The spiked collar around the neck of dogs is so that they cannot be grabbed around the neck negating their biting ability, but as described on the hunting dogs as well with threat of the prey attacking.

I find only dismay in the description of blades on claws in cock fighting and in these kinds of cruel 'sport' using animals.

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I find only dismay in the description of blades on claws in cock fighting and in these kinds of cruel 'sport' using animals.

We should stop discussing such themes, they are absolutely stupid, inhuman and unworthy
corrado26

[kronckew]

Yes, the occasional mention in passing in discussing a specific martial arm is one thing. Discussing this subject especially their illegal cruel sport aspects on it's own is not appropriate.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Yes, the occasional mention in passing in discussing a specific martial arm is one thing. Discussing this subject especially their illegal cruel sport aspects on it's own is not appropriate.

Absolutely. Do i see this thread has just ended ...

[Ren Ren]

It is wonderful that the modern inhabitants of the planet Earth are striving for the pure, bright and humane. But "civilization is when they kill as before, but no longer cut off the ears of corpses!"

[JBG163]

I saw in thoses artifacts, ancient weapons, ancient tradition and ancient culture. Maybe it was pretty dirty things. But, the Swords you collect maybe killed innocent women, men and child, maybe, it was used to rob someone or murder. Think about Nepalese Kora or Indian Sword, used to sacrifying animals...
Everything isn't bright in a society, in a different cultural way. But, the weapon itself, the construction, the way it's made and use is interessant.
By the way, i don't thing this thread need to end. Maybe move up to miscellaneous. Thanks for response about european way to Armor dogs, i wasn't aware of this. And if anybody got informations, i Hope we Can continu to talk about this, without anger.
Have a good day everybody.
Julien

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Yes, the occasional mention in passing in discussing a specific martial arm is one thing. Discussing this subject especially their illegal cruel sport aspects on it's own is not appropriate.

I agree with Wayne, an occasion digression to unusual use of a specific weapon or type where it brings animals in, such as the exemplars of armor, or the elephant swords is tolerable as long as reasonable candor is kept.

But these aspects of misuse and cruel exploitation of animals is both distasteful and disturbing. While obviously weapons are intended for combative use, as a rule, they are typically used against other weapons in a reasonably skilled exchange, and purposed primarily defensively.

I think Julien's intent here was well meaning, but I am afraid the theme has exposed an unpleasant course. Let's take the high road guys and let this one go.

[ariel]

The Third Battle of Panipat ended in a resounding defeat of the Marathi army. More than 40,000 fully armed soldiers died on the battlefield. But 40,000 -70,000 of mostly non-combatants were taken prisoner, disarmed and slaughtered in cold blood the very next day. In a forest near the village of Katyn, Russian NKVD in 1939 slaughtered 10,000 Polish officers,- who surrendered to Russians, escaping German onslaught. Not much different from the Afghani solution to the Marathi "problem" in 1761, only almost 200 years later.
From the beautiful heights of Geneva Convention we imagine wars as brutal but " honest" confrontations, something along the lines of Ivanhoe in his shining armor.
In reality, wars were always dirty, pitiless and bloody business, with no quarter given, with mass slaughter of men, women, children, sheep and oxen.
I love animals just like any of you. But let's recall, that literally several days ago we have calmly discussed Russian dogs with suicide belts, trained to crawl under German tanks and explode there.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by JBG163

... By the way, i don't thing this thread need to end. Maybe move up to miscellaneous...

Let us start by following your suggestion, Julien.Thread moved.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

... I love animals just like any of you...

Sure thing Ariel, but; maybe we don't all love with the same intensity ... just saying .

Originally Posted by ariel

... But let's recall, that literally several days ago we have calmly discussed Russian dogs with suicide belts, trained to crawl under German tanks and explode there...

Well, not we, Ariel ... not we; on the contrary ... sure you didn't miss it.

[fernando]

Let us go back to the business our forum is about.
Merry Christmas everyone .

[JBG163]

Thanks for this. By the way, i got two dogs, and i have a MSC in Ecology in the animal reign (was before becoming blacksmith). I really like animals. What interest me here, is the adaptation if the weapon / Armor, to the animal body (anatomic way), the adaptation if the weapon form to it use, and finally, the cultural aspect of it. The tajen, dagger for cockfigth, is kept by Indonesian as pusaka/heirloom. Some are cherish like keris.
It's important for me to understand différent belief and cultures.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by JBG163

Thanks for this. By the way, i got two dogs, and i have a MSC in Ecology in the animal reign (was before becoming blacksmith). I really like animals. What interest me here, is the adaptation if the weapon / Armor, to the animal body (anatomic way), the adaptation if the weapon form to it use, and finally, the cultural aspect of it. The tajen, dagger for cockfigth, is kept by Indonesian as pusaka/heirloom. Some are cherish like keris.
It's important for me to understand différent belief and cultures.

You have a good point there Julien, we should not be judgemental of the beliefs, traditions and conventions of cultures other than our own. I had no idea that blades used in cock fighting were so valued in themselves.
While to me such 'sports' are abhorrent, like bull 'fighting', I guess that in our own culture, boxing is to me brutish and distasteful. Clearly it is a very personal view.
Thank you for reminding me of being open minded in the study of cultures, which is exactly what fascinates me just as it does you.
Very well put responses and resolution.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

The weapon was not only active, but also passive
Once upon a time in Europe, wolfhound dogs were worn with wide iron collars (so that the wolf could not grab them by the neck), and for hunting wild boars, dogs wore special armor made of chain mail. Before the Second World War, one instance of such armor was stored in the collection of the Wartburg castle in Germany.

Here is an example of mentioned passive weapon - a Medieval dog collar found in Hungary, but with spikes instead of plates.

[Bob A]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Here is an example of mentioned passive weapon - a Medieval dog collar found in Hungary, but with spikes instead of plates.

When I saw the collar above, it occurred to me that it might actually be reversable. It's not unknown to use a collar like the one I've pictured to restrain dogs from pulling against a lead. Unpleasant to contemplate, but admittedly humanity is often inhumane. (Proper use of this collar is not as nasty as it may appear, though the Hungarian collar is frightful.)

[kronckew]

Hunting and guard dogs frequently had (and still do) have wide leather collars with spikes to prevent other predators from attacking their vulnerable necks. Full body armour is also used for wild boar hunting, usually not usually made from maille or plate, but from more modern materials, kevlar and sections of steel belted tire are used. Boar tusks are really nasty and uppers and lowers rub against each other to sharpen them into bone razors. The boars of course object strenuously to being annoyed.

The use of the internal spike 'restraint' collar that Bob A shows is despicable and a sign of someone who should not be allowed to own a dog. They can if not very loose, do irreparable damage physically and mentally. Even loose, they are designed to hurt. There are much better and more humane anti-pull collars and harnesses available. Bob's at least has the secondary loop that restricts how far the collar will tighten, some do not and are more like a noose.

[A. G. Maisey]

I have only now noticed this thread, and I do regret not committing a post to it earlier.

I do not want to comment on the philosophy of animal combat, but I do most sincerely suggest that before condemning this out of hand, that an objective opinion based upon the mores of the time and society concerned should be attempted. Admittedly, objectivity in matters such as this do seem to be particularly difficult for many people.

However, in respect of cock fighting in Bali and Jawa, I would like to draw attention to the fact of the religious foundations of this practice. I had thought that it was well known that cock fighting in Bali was predominantly religious in nature, but apparently I was wrong about this.

Indonesia banned cock fights in about 1980, except for religious purposes in Bali, because it was it was recognised that the cock fight was a part of religious ritual.

Cock fights also continue in rural Jawa, and although not validated by religion, the cultural reason is pretty much the same, that is, the spilling of blood to get rid of evil spirits.

This link will take you to a summary of the nature of the cock fight in Bali. The writer is Jonathon Copeland, a British lawyer, the information source is Ibu Murni, a recognised authority on Balinese culture and society:-

https://www.murnis.com/culture/balinese-cockfights/

[DaveF]

I've just come across this thread and offer a couple of photos of modern passive weapon dog collars from Turkey.

The first example (just like the medieval Hungarian example from ALEX) is from a village blacksmith in Elmali, in the mountains of South West Turkey in 2008.

The second photo is of a collar bought from a blacksmith in the wonderful bazaar in Urfa, just north of the Syrian border in South East Turkey in 2013.

Both blacksmiths said the collars were for use by dogs that protected herds of goats or sheep from wolf attacks. Having recently dropped the second example onto my wrist from a very small height I can painfully confirm its capacity to do damage!

[gp]

sickening to show this pics and justify these items

as for " religious foundations": these can also be applied to the inquisition, burning of witches, abuse of women and children ....very bright thinking I would say. Amin Maalouf wrote a nice book about the crusaders with regards to this topic ; a book I can highly recommend you all !

also "not be judgemental of the beliefs, traditions and conventions of cultures other than our own"
would imply that I should not comment on the guillotine or Zyklon B if I take it literally as these were not part of my own culture beliefs, traditions and conventions ...? Come on!

@ mods :

I rather have a discussion about a fantasy weapon than animal cruelty.'
Just from a moral perspective and taste

[DaveF]

Originally Posted by gp

sickening to show this pics and justify these items

as for " religious foundations": these can also be applied to the inquisition, burning of witches, abuse of women and children ....very bright thinking I would say. Amin Maalouf wrote a nice book about the crusaders with regards to this topic ; a book I can highly recommend you all !

also "not be judgemental of the beliefs, traditions and conventions of cultures other than our own"
would imply that I should not comment on the guillotine or Zyklon B if I take it literally as these were not part of my own culture beliefs, traditions and conventions ...? Come on!

@ mods :

I rather have a discussion about a fantasy weapon than animal cruelty.'
Just from a moral perspective and taste

It's a bit of a leap from collars used to stop working dogs having their throats ripped out to Zyclon B.

[gp]

Originally Posted by DaveF

It's a bit of a leap from collars used to stop working dogs having their throats ripped out to Zyclon B.

It is the principle to use religion and culture to justify something immoral I wanted to address.

And yes, I might have put it a little harsh but guess a wake up call was needed here :

the sound of silence ( a nice song nevertheless) was the general tune here...especially if you look at the timeline of this topic !

I am sorry but you still do not get it that I wanted to address the issue that if you are not part of a certain culture , one should not speak.Which is clearly written and not by me ...

Talking dogs: I used to have a bouvier de flanders for 14 years and my wife a sarplaninac... these dogs never needed a collar as they were bred for that purpose: to protect. Just like my in law with a cane corso....
I trained my bouvier and the cane as protection / guard dog : no collar needed.
That is a silly defence as it would not save a dog against several wolves...

So my point is that culture is and remains indeed a silly excuse, hence the idiot Zyklon B example which you did not get it that I addressed the “excuse” that if you do not belong to the culture, in this case of the ones who used Zyklon B, you are not entitled to address it if I follow an explanation above by the letter.....sorry to repeat myself but please read previous comments carefully .

I am sorry and think it sad that you did not spend a single word on this wrong use of animals and the wrong justification, unless you agree ... which ( not spending a single word on animal misuse) I accept in the latter case.
.
But than again Kant tells use one can not dispute about taste in his Aesthetic Judgment...so better I let it rest

Nevertheless I wish you a nice day and stay healthy !


BR
Gunar

[Ian]

Time out on this one guys. This is a contentious old thread, with feelings running deep, and it has been considered before for deletion. Past experience on similar issues indicates spirited discussion can turn nasty quickly. Let's take a break!