Old Java Keris ???

[Gavin Nugent]

I know very little about keris, even less where Java Keris are concerned. Some years ago I shared this with a member. To my surprise he placed this in the 17th century.

It seems to have travelled a long way as many keris have over the centuries, dressed in a Minangkabau hulu but retaining it's Java sarong.

Its a monster of a blade compared to all other Java blades I've had and have.

Gavin

[Marcokeris]

the blade seems to me Balinese, hilt from Sumatra and mendak and sarong from Java

[kai]

I'm with Marco on the parts of this ensemble, Gavin.

The nice Bali blade deserves some warangan to bring out the pamor...

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

In my opinion this keris is early Jawa.

Difficult to place in time, probably a very knowledgeable Javanese enthusiast might give it as something like Kahuripan, that relates to pre-Majapahit East Jawa,which in my opinion cannot be supported by either historical or monumental evidence, but as a classification rather than a place in time, it might stand. There are things that cannot be appraised from a photograph that would need appraisal before I could give a tangguh classification.

My preference is to relate this blade to the very large Javanese blades from the North Coast that immediately followed the collapse of Majapahit and the migration of smiths to the West.

16th century seems reasonable, this would place in the 1500's, Majapahit collapsed around 1525.

17th century is too late because the Demak/Pajang/Mataram forms were dominant at that time.

15th century is too early because during the 1400's the keris was undergoing change from the old Bethok/Buda form to the Modern Keris that we know now.

Of course, if this keris were to be stripped of dress and given a good clean and then stained, most collectors would give it as Bali, I might even do so myself, and then probably place it in the 19th century. But it is not reasonable to assume a 19th century Balinese blade is going to be dressed in very old, probably damaged, North Coast Jawa dress.

EDIT
Close examination of detail cannot support very early East Jawa such as Kahuripan or Jenggolo, there are features that might be able to be aligned to Majapahit, but it would be difficult to convince most people we were looking at a Mojo blade because nobody living has ever seen one in original condition and known with certainty what they were looking at.

The overall length might prove to be a bit short for the North Coast blades I have in mind, but I think overall I need to stay with North Coast, 1500's:- size, workmanship(garap), details pretty much rule out anything else, and the dress rules out 19th century Bali.

[David]

Alan certainly knows better on the details, but i also would have placed this blade as Javanese. I would have said post Mojopahit. Pre seems too early to me. Seems is fairly nice condition and could use some TLC.
I'd like to see better photos of the hilt. I'm not sure it is Minang.

[Gavin Nugent]

Alan,

Thank you very much for your supporting insight in to this wonderful old Keris.

If COVID ever ends I'd be more happy to provide you with this Keris in the hand to enjoy. We've family in the Blue Mountains we'd like to see once this all settles down and if not too far out of the way, happy to make a detour to you.

Are there further images or details that would help you in understanding this keris from afar?

David,

Thank you for your interest. I will take some photos of this most unusual and unique hulu.


With thanks

Gavin

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your kind offer Gavin, please let me know when you're down in the Mountains and if at all possible we might be able to meet. I'm a bit of a way from Katoomba though, Huskisson area.

No, there is nothing that I could get through photos or notes that could alter my opinion much, if at all.

[Bjorn]

Absolutely wonderful blade, Gavin. I hope you'll share photos if you do decide to stain it or redress it.

[Gavin Nugent]

Alan, Thank you.

It will be a welcome trip from Springwood to your stunning part of the world... a well deserved over night beach break if you can make recommendations.

Bjorn, Thank you.

I'm not sure I ever want to disturb this current marriage of cultures. To me, as it sits, this holds history still in time and displays an important part of time in Java and Keris history.
Right or wrong, I feel it would isolate cultural context and detract from this history just to present a revamped blade that is otherwise overlooked as being 19th century Balinese
Happy to discuss pros and cons privately with any concerned persons so I may see another point of view clearer.

David, As requested, some images of the unique hulu below.


For general interest, other images are provided may or may not offer context

One next to a later Malaysian relative, a substantial 11luk Terrengannu Keris.
Another next to other Java blades I have here. The one to the right is more typical in size in my limited Java experience, the other an unusually thick and robust and seems very capable.

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

I was speaking with a learned gent this week about Bugis Malaysian keris and I bought this blade in to conversation.

Without any data provided by me other than three images a suspected date range Alan has indicated, it was pointed out to me he in his excitement in the first instance that he agreed with the age assessment based on the photos.

I was provided some very interesting thoughts too. He noted the steel type as being very very rare, being made from a Sulawesi iron and made into steel alloy. White carbon steel was the term used, a very pure bright crucible steel. I am certainly not versed in metallurgy but found it interesting.
The Malay term I have asked for the spelling... other here may know the term?

He noted that these were dangerously sharp like a razor, which is supported in what discourse I read on the steel type in today's knife making.

As a side not too, the steel to me in hand is light like an alloy compound. I am sure the POB and nature of the wide deep fullering has a lot to do with this, but in the hand it is much more. I have only ever experienced this type of steel with a light alloy feel once before, being in the a Georgian National treasure made by the Elizarasjvili(Eliarashvili)/Eliarov family of master smiths, that now resides in a museums care.

Further to this, he had informed me that such a blade type was not seen outside of Royal families or those very close to them.
These points got me to thinking about this blade and the bright steel and provenance.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...6&postcount=30

As many of you know, I have struggled with the conserve/preserve vs the restoration of keris...In many instances I have a foot in both camps, some I do, some I don't...

This is one of those that I don't believe in restoration, but rather a conserve for the future in its current state, being a looking glass in to the past, a preservation of an artefact.

I understand cultural points of view and the faith many have in if it is old make it new again, but with what Alan noted above, which added further weight to my choices to conserve, should I strip this down and follow a path of restoration, what's left.... a loose blade that may be mistaken for Bali... we all know data is rarely collected and retained across generations as things move hands... I feel it would be a shame to interrupt the story of this keris in doing so... another point was made recently to me about this subject too... it was said, we are not in the courts of old or at war with these artefacts anymore, they deserve the respect of the passage of time also... perhaps this has opened the old can of worms on this matter...

[A. G. Maisey]

Gavin, I'm pretty firmly in the camp that believes in the concept that all peoples, societies, cultures own their own culture.

What I have been taught by people who actively participate in Javanese culture is that it is disrespectful to keep an old blade in damaged and/or inferior dress.

The keris is not to be regarded as some sort of generic artefact that has been frozen in time, rather it should be regarded as a living entity & treated with the respect that is due to a living entity.

Added to this more or less general perspective there is the perspective of Empu Suparman, who in addition to upholding the "living entity" perspective added to that the belief that failure to respect and maintain a keris in proper dress & condition was immensely disrespectful to the maker of that keris.

We do not have the right to adopt the attitude that we own any keris, we do not and cannot own a keris. All we have is the obligation to care for a keris as long as it is in our own custody. That concept of "care" is similar to the way in which we might care for a family member.

If we have any love & respect for our family members we do not dress them in rags and fail to provide soap & water, nor do we deny them food.

At the moment you are blessed with the opportunity to care for this quite beautiful keris. You should consider yourself fortunate.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gavin, I'm pretty firmly in the camp that believes in the concept that all peoples, societies, cultures own their own culture.

What I have been taught by people who actively participate in Javanese culture is that it is disrespectful to keep an old blade in damaged and/or inferior dress.

The keris is not to be regarded as some sort of generic artefact that has been frozen in time, rather it should be regarded as a living entity & treated with the respect that is due to a living entity.

Added to this more or less general perspective there is the perspective of Empu Suparman, who in addition to upholding the "living entity" perspective added to that the belief that failure to respect and maintain a keris in proper dress & condition was immensely disrespectful to the maker of that keris.

We do not have the right to adopt the attitude that we own any keris, we do not and cannot own a keris. All we have is the obligation to care for a keris as long as it is in our own custody. That concept of "care" is similar to the way in which we might care for a family member.

If we have any love & respect for our family members we do not dress them in rags and fail to provide soap & water, nor do we deny them food.

At the moment you are blessed with the opportunity to care for this quite beautiful keris. You should consider yourself fortunate.

Thank you Alan for these kind, respectful, and insightful words of yours.

I do feel very privileged to know such a rare piece of history so intimately and being able to share it and learn, equally privileged to be offered your life time of experience on the subject matter and be able to engage in conversations like this openly.

I do not claim to own anything other than this short lived meat suit I wear, but even that is ego speaking as I have no control other than maintenance over it within the engagement with time that it has...

I am certainly doing my best in preserving it from further deterioration, beyond that I do not have the skills, insight, contacts, nor ability to do otherwise any true cultural justice, any attempts by me, are to me a more gross disrespect. Frankly, myself included, does any one individual deserve this keris, should it not be persevered within an institution.... but they too have their limitations and often longevity issues...

With these limitations, I can only care and maintain it as I can, until my time passes or I pass it to a new custodian.

With thanks

Gavin

[A. G. Maisey]

Institution Gavin?

You mean like jail?

It has the right to life, just as you do.

As for skills, well, there are ways.

The point I have been trying to make is that this keris needs to brought to the position where it has the chance to survive for a few more hundred years. You only have a loan of it, and if you do not make it desirable while you have the opportunity to do so, it might not even see the end of this century.

This is what we do with old keris:- we try to extend their lives.

Museums lock them up in controlled conditions and kill them.

People do not.

[SidJ]

I used to work at the West Australian Museum. One of my colleagues used to say "Museums are the palaces of the Dead not the gardens of the living'. I've pondered that over the years.

[A. G. Maisey]

True Sid.

Very true.

Things have a limited life in a museum when they are on display, but when they go into storage, they slowly, slowly die.

To keep a keris alive it needs as a minimum continued contact with people.

[Jean]

A rather similar Javanese blade (shortened) before and after warangan for reference.

[Gavin Nugent]

You have skills! I like the screaming face at the tip...

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

You have skills! I like the screaming face at the tip...

Hum, the warangan treatment was performed by the best craftsman in Solo