May i query again on this lance?

[fernando]

I have shown this lance head in this Forum, nearly a year ago, but i wasn't lucky at getting any coments posted.
Still i wonder how hold is this blade forging tecnique, as i am not certain about this example's age.
It came with a part of its original shaft, judging by its rusticity and worm degradation.
The other day, some local person said it could be a 17th century Hunting Lance. Is this any plausible?
Would some of the Members coment on this blade making system, and what period it covered?
I would be so much obliged.
Kind regards
fernando

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Fernando,

From what you write, you don’t have the whole shaft, so we don’t know how long it has been. I think it must have been fairly short – but I am no specialist at all, so take it with a grant of salt. If you are willing to give up a little part of the rest of the shaft, specialists can give you an age and tell you what kind of wood the shaft was made of. Thinking that you are not too fond of this, we are out guessing. I seem to remember that I have seen Danish spears from the 17th c. like this one, used for wild boar hunting.

Was it an eath found????

Jens

[Mark]

It looks like there is a hole through the head/shaft below the pins attaching the head to the shaft, where perhaps a cross-bar once existed. If there is evidence of a cross-bar, I would say this is conclusive of it being a hunting spear. If you have more than a half meter or so of the shaft, and there is no cross-bar or evidence of one, I would say it is not a hunting spear (at least not a European one).

The cross-bar is necessary in a hunting spear to prevent the game (a charging boar, for example) from "running up" the spear and getting at the hunter. A war spear, on the other hand, is designed to penetrate as far as possible and so has no cross-bar.

[fernando]

Thank you Jens.
The remaining haft measures 67 centimetrs. thickness over 4 centimeters.
Very pertinent question, Mark. I too considered this could be an Ascuma ( I can't find the translation ), much used over here for wild boar, back in those times.
I learnt these lances mostly had a travinca ( cross bar ) either of iron in the blade socket or, at a prior stage, made in bone, held in the haft .
There are indeed "too many" holes in the socket of this blade, but i can not come to conclusions, as i lack an experienced eye. The pair of holes occupied by those bizarre and apparently useless nails is not placed in an opposite position, and have a very narrow diameter, not seemingly ideal to hold the cross bar, as eventually the one only hole could be the actual fixing mode.
On the other hand, and assuming this is one of those hunting Ascumas, we are admiting this lance could even be older than 17th century.
What do you make of this ?
Thanks
fernando

[Henk]

It looks to me, although it isn't my terrain at all, that there was a possibility of cross bars on the place of these opposite holes. The many holes in the shaft are spurs of woodworm. Still present?? Then you better should do something against it.

I think it is an earth find and just a nice wannahave. Maybe you can ask a museum for an opinion?

[Tim Simmons]

It could be a boar spear even if there is no bar. The British officers in in India would go pig sticking with a short lance without a bar and a large lump of lead at the butt end. Judging by the construction this could well be a rural made sticker for the local pig hunt.

[fernando]

Thank you Henk.
The worms are death now. I actually killed them by soaking the shaft with worm killer with such abuse that it lost practically all age nice patina. I also had to resharpen it and stick it again into the socket, as it was cracking at the fixing point, due to the iron nails contact corrosion.
Otherwise this shaft must be made of such solid wood that, despite being all perforated by the worms, it steel resisted my rude manipulation.
I don't think this was an earth finding, the patina was so much glowing !
When i said "too many holes" i was referring to the three orifices on the socket, assuming some of them could be for a device like a cross-bar, after Mark's remark. But the holes are not right opposite, and are too close from the blade, rigt ?
Thank you Tim. We agree on various points, namely "rural made for local pig hunt", a popular ancient game resource also over here.
But in those days local tecniques were not so distant from the "Ordnance" ones and, what really touches me is the way this blade was built. Such particular forging ( welding ? ) manner certainly corresponds to an evolution period range , which would allow for a guess on its possible age.
Would there be any Member within this field of knowledge ?
Thanks once more
fernando

[Tim Simmons]

Is it possible this has come from the tropics, like the Congo. The wood and insect damage reminds me of the wooden pole I had on the back of a Congo shield. A thread was started by a member called Kate or Kateous showing a Congo dance spear with the same shape blade. I think yours is possibly the same sort of thing only more macho, infact I feel sure it is and I will look for the thread.

[Tim Simmons]

Fernando, look in the Search for Katius, I thik this is the answer. The spear tip you have is one of these, which is nice.

[fernando]

Maybe only the shape, Tim.
Kate's spear is mounted on a cane shaft and would be significantly smaller than my piece, which blade is 7 cms. wide and, together with socket, measures in total 34 cms., weighing some 600 grams. The raw wood shaft is 4,5 cms. thick. It is indeed a grotesque lance, i think demanding for a lot of strenght to stab a beast with it.
In what regards the blade shape/structure, i once saw an apparently similar one in a web page ( i don't remember which ), found in 7th century british graves ( roman?saxon? ), but i am an ignorant at judging this subject, i can not precise anything.
But i would say it ought to be an european weapon, not impossibly portuguese. whatever age, whatever forging system
fernando

[Rather]

I would agree that it is a hunting weapon. They were often decorated with tufts of hair or some kind of tassels, that would explain the small nails to fix such decorations and which seem to be useless otherwise. A lengths of 35 – 40 cm is usual for such spears, and 600 grams is even on the low side. Many of them had no cross bars, or cross bars were just strap down to the shaft.
They are still legal for hunting in Germany, nevertheless not very popular anymore, and you can buy them new. (Picture attached)


Fine examples from 16. and 17. century one can find on the internet page of the German Historical Museum in Berlin

http://www.dhm.de/magazine/jagdwaffe...=10&page=3&x=1

The forging technique of the socket reminds me of tools, I have seen in a local agriculture museum. My estimate of age is 200 years (+/- 50), made by a rural blacksmith, definitely not 7th century.

[tom hyle]

Could we get any sort of answer on the question of crossbars? I see no sign at all? Their absence would not rule out an European hunting spear; only some types for large dangerous game had them, and many such were also habitually used for killing men. The shape of the blade, the heavy construction of the socket, the apparent welding of the socket to the blade (?), and the multiple holes for nails or rivets are all pretty typical. Atypical and most interesting is that the blade seems to be made up of two plates welded to each other along an overlap at the center of the blade. This is generally considered a Bantu (Central African) technique/design, and is often echoed in the offset cross section of Bantu blades, formed by this method or more homogenous. It has one common cognate that I know in Europe; in the DE kinzhals with the offset fullers.
Small nails are fairly common, BTW, on old tools, and where the wood is sound, they are often quite effective, even difficult to withdraw when trying.
Attached dangly crossbars in the 1600s could be ivory etc. were flat, and attached by a flat ribbon, thru a flat tunnel, shich crosses thr\uu not the center of the spear, but off to the side.
Spears of such sort tend to have large parrallel sided blades not much like this.

[fernando]

Thank you for the link, Rather. I don't seem to be able to open the pictures, bu i got an idea from the front page.
The aproach i made on the 7th century saxon spear was only to quote an image of the blade construction and visual look. I tend to beleive mine is a 16th century piece, from the first opinion i had, and not 17th, as i wrongly wrote in the first post in this thread
I would say the two ( almost ) opposite holes are too close from the blade and so within the penetration area, therefore not plausible to have here any kind of device, be it crossbars or cloth and hair "blood stoppers". The late were definitely stuck into the socket base, right?

Thank you Tom
As you well say, the two little holes could be an add up to the socket fixing.
I actually took off the nails, to refix the shaft. They are not hard nails, but made of plain wire, looped at the top, maybe to simulate a nail head ? But i ignore if they are the originals.
Maybe the blade configuration is some different than you sugest, if i get your point ... my english is limited.
The set is composed of one base plane plate, with two extra half width parts turned (?) and welded to the base blade, one inverted to the other. This could make it look like like an offset situation, but i think this is more the result of the welding edges texture, secondary to the blade strenghtning intention, by means of doubling up the mass.
If you foccus differently to the pictures above, notice that the extra half parts include an extension down to the socket neck, to complete the reinforcement.This is what makes one think the socket is separate from the blade, but in fact is integral with the base plate.I hope you understood my selfmade lexicon.
All your further remarks confirm what i lately read on this area, namely a comprehensive portuguese book convering these weapons in medieval ages. However most pictured lances i see, are perfectly tooled, with a regular "ordnance" aspect. I still have dificulty in relating these pieces with my example, of grotesque lines, and made possibly with an anterior resource tecnique, therefore tricky to guess on its age. Also the "triangular" shaped blade is not much seen, as you well note.
Do you think this could be a 16th specimen ?
Thanks

[Tim Simmons]

Fernando look at the arrow heads in the last thread by Katana. i am sure there is a link here. The continuity of metalwork and style of point.

[fernando]

Thank you Tim.
The proportions of Katana's pieces are rather small, for the matter. My lance is a heavy duty thing. Remember the shaft is a 40 m/m thick staff. The blade is 70 m/m wide.
Here i show it in its real size, and the possible manner/s it was built.
I just don't see it being other than european.
fernando

[Tim Simmons]

Yes I think I got stuck down the wrong track.