Napoleonic Period British Artillery Short Sword Initials

Jim McDougall · 7th November 2019, 11:27 PM

Well done Bruno!!
That example REALLY looks like yours! and while I cannot make out the scribed letters in the remarkably similar 'dumbbell' cross guard, it is tempting to think they may be another grouping of the 'field' type inscriptions on these swords.

The book on American Revolutionary war swords comprehensively illustrates many examples of the swords in use at the time in America. Not surprisingly there are many from assorted European countries, and actually numbers of these were from Spain. Spain actually was indirectly involved supportively in limited degree with the Colonials, as was France of course, sharing their ever present friction with England.

While it would be good to establish from a corroborating source that these brass lionhead swords were indeed French, it does seem they were somehow present in North American context, here appearing in two disparate sources.

Returning to the interesting markings, the subject of the thread, my references to the possible abbreviations of the lettering here are admittedly inadequate specifically, however they reflect a style of combinations which were used on Mexican arms (and uniforms) I have seen. These notes are from researches many years ago and frustratingly incomplete, but the gestalt of the groupings was to me, compelling.

During the American Revolution, there were swords such as 'bilbo's' and other types of Spanish colonial swords which turned up in American context as shown by Neumann. With France as an ally, again in degree, these swords could possibly have turned up here, however with these markings it is more probable that they turned up in Mexico in the acquisitions of 'surplus' after the end of the Napoleonic campaigns.

These materials were being dispersed not only by France, where the artillery acquired by Mexico originated, but by England who was dispersing much of its firearms with cessation of war by 1820s. Napoleon was defeated, and of course not the source of war materials to Santa Anna nor Mexico,....it was simply that Santa Anna admired him.

While these abbreviations and conventions in writing may have been in similar presence in Iberian context, the crude character of their application seems more in accord with the colonial and often remote Mexican possibility than Peninsular, where better facility was available.

Regarding the possible identity of the abbreviated (presumably) regiment on the guard of the OP sword, the 'R' may of course be 'regimento' but the 'F' is unclear. If it was to the name of the unit (honoring heroic officers etc. it is hard to isolate. The N and o would be numero (sword #) ...6, but the next 'F' is unclear.....but could be to fusiliers (?) .

Attached is the image of the sword identified as American Revolutionary war linked in post by Bviera. The indiscernible markings are crude much in the manner of the original example here, but suggest similar context in their application.

fernando · 8th November 2019, 12:01 PM

Excelent finding, Bruno.
Assuming the auctioner is certain of what he offered, both swords date can be placed on the XVIII century.
Apparently this time the engraver went right to business and first assigned the Compania, skipping over the Regimiento ... or, this unit was an 'independent' Company.
We notice that the artist was a different one, with a deeper carving and no ^ separators between figures; although both markings must have come from the same origin (country), that where the swords were first distributed, i would say.
We don't know yet if Bruno's sword was acquired in Europe (Portugal ?), in that the (both) markings were done in this continent, his example 'escaping' to become part of stocks exported to the Americas.
I dare say that, nothing is yet clear; even the R could Real, as often Spanish forces could be described ... this just to switch on the complicometer

.

.

kronckew · 8th November 2019, 05:50 PM

Just acquired, another Lion head Artillery sword, appears to be German, slightly recurved blade. Scabbard needs some TLC to re-attach the chape. Will pick up early next week, not sure about any markings yet. They seem to get around...

corrado26 · 8th November 2019, 06:13 PM

This is the Bavarian Artillery Seitengewehr 1892.

kronckew · 8th November 2019, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

This is the Bavarian Artillery Seitengewehr 1892.

Thanks, that's what I was hoping. Worth a bit more than I paid for mine I gather.

To personalise it a bit: He looks just like me at that age! (kinda blurry pic)

Jim McDougall · 8th November 2019, 06:40 PM

These cast iron hilts did become more widely used by other ranks units in the latter 18th century as this means of production made large volumes of munitions grade weaponry better facilitated.
The 'lion head' was popular as a pommel style throughout Europe from much earlier of course, and these hilts seem to have been incorporated into many other ranks of varied units of artillery or support units. Specialized units such as sappers, miners etc.

With our two lionhead swords in discussion, as I have suggested, these appear to both be of what appears to be a French pattern, and in Revolutionary War period context. While the swords themselves seem the same, and probably from the same production source (probably in France? we need more confirmation of that classification). ….these MARKINGS are not from the production source......they appear to be FIELD MARKINGS.

These are inventory marks which were typically applied in ersatz manner by less than skilled individuals charged with that duty while on campaign.
The styling and inconsistent use of letters, acronyms, superscript and separations are characteristic of the mélange of units in the Mexican army fashioned by Santa Anna et al.

The Revolutionary War (period) classification is simply a broad context loosely applied (typically) to weapons appearing of that period. It does not geographically signify they have that provenance. A 19th c. sabre found in Alabama is not necessarily Civil War nor Confederate, it is plausibly suggested so.

These two swords APPEAR to have become used in what I deem Mexican context in some manner about 1820s+ and marked as previously suggested. Naturally this is suggestion pending further research but I feel compelled at the idea at this point.

The meaning of the letters is difficult without better rosters of Mexican units, to determine what they might represent. While the R for real is tempting, it does not seem a character used in Mexican context in unit markings. In most cases it seems for Regimento, much as the C for compania.

The No followed by number seems to be a rack number where applicable, I cannot make out the rest of the inscription on the second sword.

With regard to the estimation of unit designations I have described in Mexican context, most of the notes I had mentioned were from various buttons and badge or accoutrement devices which were excavated in situ from sites in Mexico. As noted, rather than systemic designations there were often dramatic variations in unit identifications by letters and numbers. In many cases they were for places or names significant for origin or commanders etc.

7th November 2019, 11:27 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,815	Well done Bruno!! That example REALLY looks like yours! and while I cannot make out the scribed letters in the remarkably similar 'dumbbell' cross guard, it is tempting to think they may be another grouping of the 'field' type inscriptions on these swords. The book on American Revolutionary war swords comprehensively illustrates many examples of the swords in use at the time in America. Not surprisingly there are many from assorted European countries, and actually numbers of these were from Spain. Spain actually was indirectly involved supportively in limited degree with the Colonials, as was France of course, sharing their ever present friction with England. While it would be good to establish from a corroborating source that these brass lionhead swords were indeed French, it does seem they were somehow present in North American context, here appearing in two disparate sources. Returning to the interesting markings, the subject of the thread, my references to the possible abbreviations of the lettering here are admittedly inadequate specifically, however they reflect a style of combinations which were used on Mexican arms (and uniforms) I have seen. These notes are from researches many years ago and frustratingly incomplete, but the gestalt of the groupings was to me, compelling. During the American Revolution, there were swords such as 'bilbo's' and other types of Spanish colonial swords which turned up in American context as shown by Neumann. With France as an ally, again in degree, these swords could possibly have turned up here, however with these markings it is more probable that they turned up in Mexico in the acquisitions of 'surplus' after the end of the Napoleonic campaigns. These materials were being dispersed not only by France, where the artillery acquired by Mexico originated, but by England who was dispersing much of its firearms with cessation of war by 1820s. Napoleon was defeated, and of course not the source of war materials to Santa Anna nor Mexico,....it was simply that Santa Anna admired him. While these abbreviations and conventions in writing may have been in similar presence in Iberian context, the crude character of their application seems more in accord with the colonial and often remote Mexican possibility than Peninsular, where better facility was available. Regarding the possible identity of the abbreviated (presumably) regiment on the guard of the OP sword, the 'R' may of course be 'regimento' but the 'F' is unclear. If it was to the name of the unit (honoring heroic officers etc. it is hard to isolate. The N and o would be numero (sword #) ...6, but the next 'F' is unclear.....but could be to fusiliers (?) . Attached is the image of the sword identified as American Revolutionary war linked in post by Bviera. The indiscernible markings are crude much in the manner of the original example here, but suggest similar context in their application. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 8th November 2019 at 01:11 AM.

8th November 2019, 12:01 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,668	Excelent finding, Bruno. Assuming the auctioner is certain of what he offered, both swords date can be placed on the XVIII century. Apparently this time the engraver went right to business and first assigned the Compania, skipping over the Regimiento ... or, this unit was an 'independent' Company. We notice that the artist was a different one, with a deeper carving and no ^ separators between figures; although both markings must have come from the same origin (country), that where the swords were first distributed, i would say. We don't know yet if Bruno's sword was acquired in Europe (Portugal ?), in that the (both) markings were done in this continent, his example 'escaping' to become part of stocks exported to the Americas. I dare say that, nothing is yet clear; even the R could Real, as often Spanish forces could be described ... this just to switch on the complicometer . . Attached Images

8th November 2019, 05:50 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,156	Just acquired, another Lion head Artillery sword, appears to be German, slightly recurved blade. Scabbard needs some TLC to re-attach the chape. Will pick up early next week, not sure about any markings yet. They seem to get around... Attached Images

8th November 2019, 06:13 PM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,188	This is the Bavarian Artillery Seitengewehr 1892.

8th November 2019, 06:40 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,815	These cast iron hilts did become more widely used by other ranks units in the latter 18th century as this means of production made large volumes of munitions grade weaponry better facilitated. The 'lion head' was popular as a pommel style throughout Europe from much earlier of course, and these hilts seem to have been incorporated into many other ranks of varied units of artillery or support units. Specialized units such as sappers, miners etc. With our two lionhead swords in discussion, as I have suggested, these appear to both be of what appears to be a French pattern, and in Revolutionary War period context. While the swords themselves seem the same, and probably from the same production source (probably in France? we need more confirmation of that classification). ….these MARKINGS are not from the production source......they appear to be FIELD MARKINGS. These are inventory marks which were typically applied in ersatz manner by less than skilled individuals charged with that duty while on campaign. The styling and inconsistent use of letters, acronyms, superscript and separations are characteristic of the mélange of units in the Mexican army fashioned by Santa Anna et al. The Revolutionary War (period) classification is simply a broad context loosely applied (typically) to weapons appearing of that period. It does not geographically signify they have that provenance. A 19th c. sabre found in Alabama is not necessarily Civil War nor Confederate, it is plausibly suggested so. These two swords APPEAR to have become used in what I deem Mexican context in some manner about 1820s+ and marked as previously suggested. Naturally this is suggestion pending further research but I feel compelled at the idea at this point. The meaning of the letters is difficult without better rosters of Mexican units, to determine what they might represent. While the R for real is tempting, it does not seem a character used in Mexican context in unit markings. In most cases it seems for Regimento, much as the C for compania. The No followed by number seems to be a rack number where applicable, I cannot make out the rest of the inscription on the second sword. With regard to the estimation of unit designations I have described in Mexican context, most of the notes I had mentioned were from various buttons and badge or accoutrement devices which were excavated in situ from sites in Mexico. As noted, rather than systemic designations there were often dramatic variations in unit identifications by letters and numbers. In many cases they were for places or names significant for origin or commanders etc.