North African dagger for identification

Sajen · 8th September 2019, 05:57 PM

Hello members,

I've recently purchased a North African dagger, it remember slightly to the Algerian bou saadi or khodmi daggers but there are also differences. Could it be a Moroccan genoui? But the ones I've seen look also different. So what it is?
It's 11,75" long with a 6,5" blade.

Thank you in advance,
Detlef

Athanase · 8th September 2019, 06:49 PM

For me is an algerian Bou Saadi. The genoui blades are longer and have a more symmetrical shape.

Kubur · 8th September 2019, 07:02 PM

I agree its from Algeria but not Bou saidi but from Iflissen, a Kabyle tribe.
Please look at the tribal designs on your blade they are very close to the flyssa swords. They also have simple blond horn grips.
Overall your knife is from the so-called Bousaidi style and definitively Algerian.

kronckew · 8th September 2019, 07:03 PM

Very khodmi-ish, tho the blade shape is less utility than Vendetta stylus style. Some Iflyssan saw a Corsican knife on line and made one in Bou-saadi.

Sajen · 8th September 2019, 07:06 PM

Hello Séverin,

Thank you for comment!

My first thought as well but the blade look somewhat different and the usual seen wire winding at the joint from handle and blade isn't present at this piece. Please compare with two khodmi from my collection.

Sajen · 8th September 2019, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I agree its from Algeria but not Bou saidi but from Iflissen, a Kabyle tribe.
Please look at the tribal designs on your blade they are very close to the flyssa swords. They also have simple blond horn grips.
Overall your knife is from the so-called Bousaidi style and definitively Algerian.

Thank you very much Kubur!

Do you have an age guess?

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 8th September 2019, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Very khodmi-ish, tho the blade shape is less utility than Vendetta stylus style. Some Iflyssan saw a Corsican knife on line and made one in Bou-saadi.

I've had very similar thoughts!

Regards,
Detlef

ariel · 8th September 2019, 07:58 PM

Genoui is just a koummya with a straight blade.
Yours is a Khodmi.

Sajen · 8th September 2019, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Genoui is just a koummya with a straight blade.
Yours is a Khodmi.

Thank you Ariel!

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 29th March 2020, 02:17 PM

Can I assume that this is as well a Khodmi from Iflissen similar to the one the thread started?

Last picture show it together with a Bou saidi.

Thank you in advance,
Detlef

Ian · 29th March 2020, 02:56 PM

Detlef,

The blade reminds me very much of a 19th C. Italian "vendetta dagger." Perhaps a copy of an Italian blade in Magrib fittings.

Ian.

Sajen · 29th March 2020, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

The blade reminds me very much of a 19th C. Italian "vendetta dagger." Perhaps a copy of an Italian blade in Magrib fittings.

Hi Ian,
Yes, the style is very similar like Kronckew mentioned in up already. But the blade engraving look very crude for a European blade.

Regards,
Detlef

Ian · 29th March 2020, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

... But the blade engraving look very crude for a European blade.

Yes, and the fullers are not quite right also. I think it is a locally made imitation of an Italian dagger. Ian

kronckew · 29th March 2020, 04:01 PM

The khodmi almost universally have the wire wrapping on the grip, unlike the 'vendetta style ones. They may be Bou Saadi made tho. the spines on khodmi often have a tiny step and notch on the spine at the tip. On some this is worn newer ones seen not to have them. Some khodmi with wood/horn gips have been sold in Europe as 'Medieval eating knives'

Sajen · 29th March 2020, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Yes, and the fullers are not quite right also. I think it is a locally made imitation of an Italian dagger. Ian

As far I understand, the khodmi is inspected by the Vandetta dagger.

Sajen · 29th March 2020, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

The khodmi almost universally have the wire wrapping on the grip, unlike the 'vendetta style ones. They may be Bou Saadi made tho. the spines on khodmi often have a tiny step and notch on the spine at the tip. On some this is worn newer ones seen not to have them. Some khodmi with wood/horn gips have been sold in Europe as 'Medieval eating knives'

I think that is valid for the Bou Saadi daggers but not for Khodmi when I understand Kubur correct (post #3).

Regards,
Detlef

Kubur · 29th March 2020, 04:32 PM

Hi

You have a North African pseudo pesh kabz.

More seriously it's more a Moroccan janwi or genoui than a khodmi...

The grip is very similar to the shula and the size to the janwi.

I vote for Morocco.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24849

Sajen · 29th March 2020, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi

You have a North African pseudo pesh kabz.

More seriously it's more a Moroccan janwi or genoui than a khodmi...

The grip is very similar to the shula and the size to the janwi.

I vote for Morocco.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24849

Hi Kubur,
Thank you very much! Like we see seems the variety great and the transitions fluent. I see a lot of resemblance to the one the thread started.
Any age guess?

Regards,
Detlef

ariel · 29th March 2020, 09:59 PM

I would strongly recommend the new book by Eric Claude on Moroccan and Algerian edged weapons.
Charles was kind enough to post its ordering information on the Swap Forum.

Sajen · 29th March 2020, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I would strongly recommend the new book by Eric Claude on Moroccan and Algerian edged weapons.
Charles was kind enough to post its ordering information on the Swap Forum.

Yes, I've seen the threads about this book. Just have ordered Steel and Magic since it's about my main interest. When I would have enough money I would have many many more books!

Regards,
Detlef

ariel · 29th March 2020, 11:40 PM

Well, to each his own. I also ordered Steel and Magic, even though it is not my area of interest.
But these days and for quite some time I am mostly collecting good books. There are so many things I learn from them!

One thing I have learned from Eric's book is that nobody, but nobody, in Morocco calls a Koummya "koummya". It is a Khanjar.
And that shorted some neurons deep in the amphibious part of the brain....:-)

What always puzzled me is the peculiar, practically unique, way of sharpening the edges of Koummya. It is double edged, but the convex side is sharpened only on the distal ~ 1/3 , whereas the concave side has 1/2-3/4 of it sharpened.

There are not very frequent examples of Persian khanjars with a very similar construction.
Anybody has an opinion whether it is just parallel development or a borrowed idea, and whether the local Moroccan moniker reflects it?

Sajen · 30th March 2020, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, to each his own. I also ordered Steel and Magic, even though it is not my area of interest.
But these days and for quite some time I am mostly collecting good books. There are so many things I learn from them!

Yes, I value good books as well, I will think about!

Kubur · 30th March 2020, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

One thing I have learned from Eric's book is that nobody, but nobody, in Morocco calls a Koummya "koummya". It is a Khanjar.
And that shorted some neurons deep in the amphibious part of the brain....:-)

We know that you love this game!
Yes they say Hanzeer (khanjar).
And the Moroccan sword is a saif not a nimcha...

kronckew · 30th March 2020, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

...

What always puzzled me is the peculiar, practically unique, way of sharpening the edges of Koummya. It is double edged, but the convex side is sharpened only on the distal ~ 1/3 , whereas the concave side has 1/2-3/4 of it sharpened.
...

that's because the jambiyah/koumiyyah/khanjarthrougout the arabic world is used with the point down and the inner curve as the main cutting surface, Most are fully double edged, and westerners and those not used to the old ways assume it's used like a short sabre/talwar.

See also this western sword dealer/teacher's take on this, and read the comments below, especially what id now the first,
"SamNam11
4 years ago
I'm a descendent of a nomad tribe from the Arabian peninsula. To use correctly, after the small penetration with the tip forward the holder makes an outward cut like with a kukri. So it never intended to make a full stab in that way of holding. Btw holding it upward with the tip backward was funny to see because in my culture is a sign of lacking the experience with this dagger

".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy9myTnFfUc

ariel · 30th March 2020, 03:54 PM

Thanks!
I knew it, but did not dig it out of my amphibious brain. Shame....
Lesson for me: information needs to be stored AND actively retrieved:-)
I forgot this rule at my own peril.
Will tattoo it in red on my frontal lobe .

kronckew · 30th March 2020, 04:19 PM

I suspect the Moroccans are lazy and only sharpen as little as possible rather than the more normal fully sharpened both edges. It's certainly not because they get there fingers down there. I dislike Khoumiyya in general. Moroccan saifs are OK tho, I especially like the ones we call 'nimcha' even tho they aren't really. I have a 'cavalry nimcha' with a really long blade (Camel corps?) as an oxymoron; and a more piratey nimcha (short) one or two. One of those is guardless but has the std grip profile for one... Weird.

Kubur · 30th March 2020, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

I suspect the Moroccans are lazy and only sharpen as little as possible rather than the more normal fully sharpened both edges. It's certainly not because they get there fingers down there. I dislike Khoumiyya in general.

Moroccans are not lazy, Africans are not lazy, Arabs are not lazy.
English are not lazy (despite they have Polish workers).

Be careful i was banned from this forum for less
just because I posted one item that i had on the swap forum...

Sajen · 30th March 2020, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

English are not lazy (despite they have Polish workers).

But I can confirm that also Polands not lazy!

The Germans like Poland workers.

kronckew · 30th March 2020, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Moroccans are not lazy, Africans are not lazy, Arabs are not lazy.
English are not lazy (despite they have Polish workers).

Be careful i was banned from this forum for less
just because I posted one item that i had on the swap forum...

i Was just Joking. Time is money to a maker, if they do not need to perform an operation they won't, unless they can justify the expense. And I worked with a large number of Arabs, lived in nSaudi for 10+ years, `some were lazy, some were not. just like the rest of us. Had an assistant in Dhahran that was half Saudi, Half Moroccan, UK Cambridge Grad, smarter than most, and an all around great person and friend. His Mom was the moroccan one, very western, divorced from her Saudi husband and ruled the family. really sharp woman.

p.s.- Half my family came from areas that are now Poland, were Prussia and Austria Galetia back then. We were the German speaking part. The Polish plumbers and construction workers in the UK usually make the indigenous ones look less than industrious, especially the Union ones.

ariel · 31st March 2020, 12:30 AM

On top of that, Poland has an insane number of gorgeous women. Polish men are not lazy: they understandably try to stay home as much as possible. Can’t blame them

)))

8th September 2019, 05:57 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,788	North African dagger for identification Hello members, I've recently purchased a North African dagger, it remember slightly to the Algerian bou saadi or khodmi daggers but there are also differences. Could it be a Moroccan genoui? But the ones I've seen look also different. So what it is? It's 11,75" long with a 6,5" blade. Thank you in advance, Detlef Attached Images

8th September 2019, 07:03 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	Very khodmi-ish, tho the blade shape is less utility than Vendetta stylus style. Some Iflyssan saw a Corsican knife on line and made one in Bou-saadi. Attached Images

8th September 2019, 07:06 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,788	Hello Séverin, Thank you for comment! My first thought as well but the blade look somewhat different and the usual seen wire winding at the joint from handle and blade isn't present at this piece. Please compare with two khodmi from my collection. Attached Images

29th March 2020, 02:17 PM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,788	Can I assume that this is as well a Khodmi from Iflissen similar to the one the thread started? Last picture show it together with a Bou saidi. Thank you in advance, Detlef Attached Images

29th March 2020, 04:01 PM	#14
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	The khodmi almost universally have the wire wrapping on the grip, unlike the 'vendetta style ones. They may be Bou Saadi made tho. the spines on khodmi often have a tiny step and notch on the spine at the tip. On some this is worn newer ones seen not to have them. Some khodmi with wood/horn gips have been sold in Europe as 'Medieval eating knives' Attached Images

8th September 2019, 06:49 PM	#2
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	For me is an algerian Bou Saadi. The genoui blades are longer and have a more symmetrical shape.

8th September 2019, 07:02 PM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I agree its from Algeria but not Bou saidi but from Iflissen, a Kabyle tribe. Please look at the tribal designs on your blade they are very close to the flyssa swords. They also have simple blond horn grips. Overall your knife is from the so-called Bousaidi style and definitively Algerian.

8th September 2019, 07:58 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Genoui is just a koummya with a straight blade. Yours is a Khodmi.

29th March 2020, 02:56 PM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,204	Detlef, The blade reminds me very much of a 19th C. Italian "vendetta dagger." Perhaps a copy of an Italian blade in Magrib fittings. Ian.

29th March 2020, 04:32 PM	#17
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi You have a North African pseudo pesh kabz. More seriously it's more a Moroccan janwi or genoui than a khodmi... The grip is very similar to the shula and the size to the janwi. I vote for Morocco. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24849

29th March 2020, 09:59 PM	#19
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would strongly recommend the new book by Eric Claude on Moroccan and Algerian edged weapons. Charles was kind enough to post its ordering information on the Swap Forum.

29th March 2020, 11:40 PM	#21
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, to each his own. I also ordered Steel and Magic, even though it is not my area of interest. But these days and for quite some time I am mostly collecting good books. There are so many things I learn from them! One thing I have learned from Eric's book is that nobody, but nobody, in Morocco calls a Koummya "koummya". It is a Khanjar. And that shorted some neurons deep in the amphibious part of the brain....:-) What always puzzled me is the peculiar, practically unique, way of sharpening the edges of Koummya. It is double edged, but the convex side is sharpened only on the distal ~ 1/3 , whereas the concave side has 1/2-3/4 of it sharpened. There are not very frequent examples of Persian khanjars with a very similar construction. Anybody has an opinion whether it is just parallel development or a borrowed idea, and whether the local Moroccan moniker reflects it? Attached Images

30th March 2020, 03:54 PM	#25
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks! I knew it, but did not dig it out of my amphibious brain. Shame.... Lesson for me: information needs to be stored AND actively retrieved:-) I forgot this rule at my own peril. Will tattoo it in red on my frontal lobe .

30th March 2020, 04:19 PM	#26
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	I suspect the Moroccans are lazy and only sharpen as little as possible rather than the more normal fully sharpened both edges. It's certainly not because they get there fingers down there. I dislike Khoumiyya in general. Moroccan saifs are OK tho, I especially like the ones we call 'nimcha' even tho they aren't really. I have a 'cavalry nimcha' with a really long blade (Camel corps?) as an oxymoron; and a more piratey nimcha (short) one or two. One of those is guardless but has the std grip profile for one... Weird.

31st March 2020, 12:30 AM	#30
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	On top of that, Poland has an insane number of gorgeous women. Polish men are not lazy: they understandably try to stay home as much as possible. Can’t blame them)))