Help needed with makers mark on tulwar

Randal · 30th July 2019, 06:25 PM

If anyone can help identify this maker's mark, it would be much appreciated. It's on the tang of a large double fullered tulwar blade that was without its grip or any scabbard. It's not mine and I don't have access to it atm for measurements or more pictures, unfortunately. Speculation at the time was that it could be a European blade exported to India, perhaps fairly early and perhaps from Italy. I have previously posted this to a Facebook group and it was suggested there that the mark was for a George Wundes of Solingen, pre-1800, but the commenter hasn't responded to requests for clarification. He mentioned his identification was from "the Bezdek book", which I assume is German Swords And Sword Makers. Unfortunately I don't have a copy and can't sadly justify the £100 plus it would cost to buy it just for curiosity. However I looked around online and eventually found pictures of the pages covering makers marks for Wundes in alphabetical order, but it went straight from Cornelius to Johannes, so I'm no further forward.
http://atkinson-swords.com/marks-and...ual-chief.html
The sword owner found this page with images of C16th-C18th Spanish armourers' marks from a C19th list, in which number 13 is strikingly similar, in structure at least. That list gives the armourer as Anton Ruy, also Antonio Ruiz, of Toledo and Madrid.
I suspect there will be people on this forum who will know a lot about this topic, so any assistance will be very gratefully received.

Jens Nordlunde · 11th August 2019, 04:35 PM

Hi and welcome to the forum.
As you surely must have read, the rules are that the whole weapon must also be shown. Maybe you then will get an answer to your question.

Jim McDougall · 11th August 2019, 04:44 PM

Hi Randal, welcome and thank you for posting this query. In your note, the key word to the mark on your blade is 'similar'. As Jens has noted, the reason we ask for images of the entire weapon, or blade, is that it is necessary to have context to determine the possibility of originality or spurious use.

For example, we know that Toledo did not produce tulwar blades, nor sabre type blades used in them. If it is a tulwar (Indo Persian hilt) mounted with a straight blade then perhaps the potential for knowing the origin of the blade increases.

Toledo marks were used spuriously in Germany of course for many years after the industry in Toledo collapsed.

Will M · 13th August 2019, 02:47 AM

How was it decided a Tulwar blade without any hilt? Looks like a French line cavalry blade (may have been altered) but no pic of the whole blade.

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2019, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will M

How was it decided a Tulwar blade without any hilt? Looks like a French line cavalry blade (may have been altered) but no pic of the whole blade.

Excellent point Will, the VERY reason we have described the importance of including the entire sword in addition to any closeup of markings, inscriptions etc.
Without context, a marking or inscription could be found on a wide spectrum of blades or many potential places. As you point out, this blade does look like one of the French straight blade with that pronounced mid rib. However I have never known anyone but Solingen to use the spuriously placed Toledo mark.

Jim McDougall · 24th August 2019, 05:25 AM

It is a shame that Randal has 'left the building', as it would have been interesting to see the full context of this 'tulwar'. The mid rib of the blade of course in surely not from a tulwar in the standard sense, but it is always possible this blade may have been mounted with the Indo-Persian hilt.

Just the same, the mark is of course spuriously placed and is meant to represent the Toledo export mark, typically with other marks on the authentic blades much earlier than this.

30th July 2019, 06:25 PM	#1
Randal Member Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1	Help needed with makers mark on tulwar If anyone can help identify this maker's mark, it would be much appreciated. It's on the tang of a large double fullered tulwar blade that was without its grip or any scabbard. It's not mine and I don't have access to it atm for measurements or more pictures, unfortunately. Speculation at the time was that it could be a European blade exported to India, perhaps fairly early and perhaps from Italy. I have previously posted this to a Facebook group and it was suggested there that the mark was for a George Wundes of Solingen, pre-1800, but the commenter hasn't responded to requests for clarification. He mentioned his identification was from "the Bezdek book", which I assume is German Swords And Sword Makers. Unfortunately I don't have a copy and can't sadly justify the £100 plus it would cost to buy it just for curiosity. However I looked around online and eventually found pictures of the pages covering makers marks for Wundes in alphabetical order, but it went straight from Cornelius to Johannes, so I'm no further forward. http://atkinson-swords.com/marks-and...ual-chief.html The sword owner found this page with images of C16th-C18th Spanish armourers' marks from a C19th list, in which number 13 is strikingly similar, in structure at least. That list gives the armourer as Anton Ruy, also Antonio Ruiz, of Toledo and Madrid. I suspect there will be people on this forum who will know a lot about this topic, so any assistance will be very gratefully received. Attached Images

24th August 2019, 05:25 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,938	It is a shame that Randal has 'left the building', as it would have been interesting to see the full context of this 'tulwar'. The mid rib of the blade of course in surely not from a tulwar in the standard sense, but it is always possible this blade may have been mounted with the Indo-Persian hilt. Just the same, the mark is of course spuriously placed and is meant to represent the Toledo export mark, typically with other marks on the authentic blades much earlier than this. Attached Images

11th August 2019, 04:35 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi and welcome to the forum. As you surely must have read, the rules are that the whole weapon must also be shown. Maybe you then will get an answer to your question.

11th August 2019, 04:44 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,938	Hi Randal, welcome and thank you for posting this query. In your note, the key word to the mark on your blade is 'similar'. As Jens has noted, the reason we ask for images of the entire weapon, or blade, is that it is necessary to have context to determine the possibility of originality or spurious use. For example, we know that Toledo did not produce tulwar blades, nor sabre type blades used in them. If it is a tulwar (Indo Persian hilt) mounted with a straight blade then perhaps the potential for knowing the origin of the blade increases. Toledo marks were used spuriously in Germany of course for many years after the industry in Toledo collapsed.

13th August 2019, 02:47 AM	#4
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	How was it decided a Tulwar blade without any hilt? Looks like a French line cavalry blade (may have been altered) but no pic of the whole blade.