English silverhilted hanger 17thC

cornelistromp · 13th March 2019, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Jasper, you just found one of the most concise articles I've ever read on buccaneer weapons! Printing and saving this to my files!! As Jim and I suspected, silver hilts did make it to sea. Your sword would make a fine addition to anyone's collection for a variety of reasons. Thanks again for finding and posting this amazing resource!
Mark

yes I thought so

best,
jasper

Richard G · 14th March 2019, 02:44 PM

Again, I throw this in not knowing whether or not it is relevant or particularly pertinent - but if it is English, shouldn,t it be hallmarked?
Regards
Richard

Norman McCormick · 14th March 2019, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

Again, I throw this in not knowing whether or not it is relevant or particularly pertinent - but if it is English, shouldn,t it be hallmarked?
Regards
Richard

Hi Richard,
Not necessarily. I was informed by Bonhams that some earlier silver items were not hallmarked in order to evade duty payments and this includes silver hilts. I have one silver hilted English hanger that is not hallmarked.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 14th March 2019, 08:58 PM

Interesting information on hallmarked silver Norman!

I agree Mark, this article really is well presented, and sort of steers toward probable reality from the 'Hollywood' versions of these times. I still remember as a young boy being fascinated with those same woodcut type prints of Lolonais, Blackbeard and others and those unmistakable scallop shell hilts. It seems I read somewhere that in the colloquial slang on vessels a cutlass or hanger was often termed a 'shell'.

I recall the great pirate illustrations by Wyeth and Pyle and the cutlasses with pronounced brass bowl hilt.......clearly Civil War naval cutlasses !! Other than that extreme gaff, the rest of the cliche' images were always exciting.

I think it is much like in all the historical settings we study, the actual weapons in use were seldom of any sort of uniformity, and often far from the colorful images of narratives and popular literature.

Still, it is exciting and fascinating to collect examples which just MIGHT have been used, and allow ourselves some degree of fanciful romanticism in thinking so.........otherwise all of this would lose its luster and adventure.

M ELEY · 15th March 2019, 06:27 AM

I absolutely agree with you there, Jim,concerning the murky waters of whether a particular sword saw sea usage or not. Most writers on the subject accept that there were definitely specific types that were popular with the sailors, officers, pirates/privateers, etc, due to their popularity and function in close quarters. I haven't digested this whole article yet, but I've printed out a copy and hope to do so soon.

Jim McDougall · 15th March 2019, 07:57 PM

"Murky waters'! Mark, a perfect simile for trying to better understand these maritime mystery swords.
The article Jasper posted is actually quite brilliant, one of the best I have seen addressing swords and weapons in pirate and maritime use in these 17th-18th periods.

While trying not to deviate too much from the silver hilt topic. ...it is always hard not to consider the overall context of what types of swords were likely preferred and why in varying circumstances in those times.

I would imagine that silver hilt hangers would have been more likely for naval officers and probably those of merchant ships. In these cases it was more for status and appearances in situations calling for ceremonial protocols. I do not think they would have been for everyday wear.

In the context of piracy, such affluent swords would have of course been a prize, and in some degree paraded about as a trophy, but not have been taken as a serious weapon.

Looking back at this great article on Buccaneer arms, and concerning the 'shell' type cutlasses. These are of course the well known 'dusagge' type swords (often later termed 'Sinclair sabres') which evolved in Slovakian and North Europe regions from later 16th c.through the 17th. These typically had sheet steel shell guards, though many versions had the developed guard systems as with rapiers as well as some with plates (believed the forerunner of basket hilts).

I believe these ended up as seagoing weapons through the typical ports in the Low Countries with extensive trade activity, and with thier short, hefty and notable hand protection, served well for the crowded, melee type action on vessels.

The cliche' term 'cutlass' for a short, heavy heft sword appears to have filtered from Italian 'coutelazo' for a large knife of 16th c. into French 'coutelas' for a machete like sword. While typically regarded in nautical parlance, it seems used more broadly in many cases.

I know I have digressed here, but these seagoing topics are addicting!

cornelistromp · 15th March 2019, 08:30 PM

for some dutch shell hilt examples see;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=dussage

best
jasper

14th March 2019, 02:44 PM	#2
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 403	Again, I throw this in not knowing whether or not it is relevant or particularly pertinent - but if it is English, shouldn,t it be hallmarked? Regards Richard

14th March 2019, 08:58 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,902	Interesting information on hallmarked silver Norman! I agree Mark, this article really is well presented, and sort of steers toward probable reality from the 'Hollywood' versions of these times. I still remember as a young boy being fascinated with those same woodcut type prints of Lolonais, Blackbeard and others and those unmistakable scallop shell hilts. It seems I read somewhere that in the colloquial slang on vessels a cutlass or hanger was often termed a 'shell'. I recall the great pirate illustrations by Wyeth and Pyle and the cutlasses with pronounced brass bowl hilt.......clearly Civil War naval cutlasses !! Other than that extreme gaff, the rest of the cliche' images were always exciting. I think it is much like in all the historical settings we study, the actual weapons in use were seldom of any sort of uniformity, and often far from the colorful images of narratives and popular literature. Still, it is exciting and fascinating to collect examples which just MIGHT have been used, and allow ourselves some degree of fanciful romanticism in thinking so.........otherwise all of this would lose its luster and adventure.

15th March 2019, 06:27 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,087	I absolutely agree with you there, Jim,concerning the murky waters of whether a particular sword saw sea usage or not. Most writers on the subject accept that there were definitely specific types that were popular with the sailors, officers, pirates/privateers, etc, due to their popularity and function in close quarters. I haven't digested this whole article yet, but I've printed out a copy and hope to do so soon.

15th March 2019, 07:57 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,902	"Murky waters'! Mark, a perfect simile for trying to better understand these maritime mystery swords. The article Jasper posted is actually quite brilliant, one of the best I have seen addressing swords and weapons in pirate and maritime use in these 17th-18th periods. While trying not to deviate too much from the silver hilt topic. ...it is always hard not to consider the overall context of what types of swords were likely preferred and why in varying circumstances in those times. I would imagine that silver hilt hangers would have been more likely for naval officers and probably those of merchant ships. In these cases it was more for status and appearances in situations calling for ceremonial protocols. I do not think they would have been for everyday wear. In the context of piracy, such affluent swords would have of course been a prize, and in some degree paraded about as a trophy, but not have been taken as a serious weapon. Looking back at this great article on Buccaneer arms, and concerning the 'shell' type cutlasses. These are of course the well known 'dusagge' type swords (often later termed 'Sinclair sabres') which evolved in Slovakian and North Europe regions from later 16th c.through the 17th. These typically had sheet steel shell guards, though many versions had the developed guard systems as with rapiers as well as some with plates (believed the forerunner of basket hilts). I believe these ended up as seagoing weapons through the typical ports in the Low Countries with extensive trade activity, and with thier short, hefty and notable hand protection, served well for the crowded, melee type action on vessels. The cliche' term 'cutlass' for a short, heavy heft sword appears to have filtered from Italian 'coutelazo' for a large knife of 16th c. into French 'coutelas' for a machete like sword. While typically regarded in nautical parlance, it seems used more broadly in many cases. I know I have digressed here, but these seagoing topics are addicting!

15th March 2019, 08:30 PM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,057	for some dutch shell hilt examples see; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=dussage best jasper