Pala - translation on the blade

[qusko]

Dear forum members,

Can you help me with translation of the pala blade descriptions?
XIX century ?

[Robert]

Posting photos of the item you are asking about would help. If you are having problems loading photos to your post check here; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631

Best,
Robert

[qusko]

Hi Robert

Thanks for your note. I was adding photos in original post but haven't noticed ithey finally they were not loaded. I've already rescaled them and added to the post.

Thank you for your help.

[qusko]

Hi All,

Anyone can help with translation?
Appriciate your help.

Any suggestion about origin? Balkan, Turkish?

[ariel]

My guess is Syria.

[TVV]

To me it looks Balkan, based on the brass scabbard furniture and the style of the inscriptions on the blade, which is very similar to what you find on Bosnian yataghans. But styles and decoration techniques traveled far and wide within the Ottoman Empire and it is hard to put them within specific borders.

[qusko]

Originally Posted by TVV

To me it looks Balkan, based on the brass scabbard furniture and the style of the inscriptions on the blade, which is very similar to what you find on Bosnian yataghans. But styles and decoration techniques traveled far and wide within the Ottoman Empire and it is hard to put them within specific borders.

TVV - that what I suspect as well based on Bosnian yataghans decoration

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by ariel

My guess is Syria.

Agree with Ariel. The silver coftgari does look similar to some Balkan Yataghans, but overall this Ottoman Pala was likely made in Syria. Here's similar:

[Kubur]

Inscriptions, blade, hilt, scabbard all Balkans

What makes you think that this kilic is from Syria?

I vote for Balkans, but it's not a difficult one.

[ariel]

My opinion was based on the same point indicated by Alex: silver koftgari.
Even now e-bay is filled with identical replicas coming from Syria and sold either directly from Damascus or through Turkish intermediaries.

[Kubur]

I was thinking that you were saying Ottoman Syria
If you mean 20th Syrian replica, then you are twice wrong.
This kilic is absolutely perfect and the inscription is original and genuine.
For Syrian replicas please look at the book Weapons of the islamic world, full of fakes...
Let me see if i can find some examples, otherwise i will scan some pages...

[ALEX]

Kubur, I am sure Ariel can tell this Pala is not a replica. He referred to the fact they are produced in Syria up until this day, and there is reason it can be Syrian, but no reason calling others ‘wrong’ for having an opinion!
This particular inscription form is not typical for Palas, so could be added later or elsewhere. The blade profile and laminated steel are more indicative of Syrian than Greek or Balkan Palas in my opinion. You may see THIS THREAD for references to both past and present Ottoman Palas in Syria (see a Bedouin Chief photo, thread 12, and several similar Palas/Kilijes on the workshop wall).

[qusko]

I was able to receive some partial translation:

لافتی الا علی لا سیف الا ذوالفقار
There is no brave young man like Ali, and no sword like Zulfiqar

[TVV]

The zig-zag decoration on the brass scabbard parts also looks like a typical Balkan decorative element to me.

A lot of arms made in the Balkans at one point traveled to Syria and Egypt - seeing a pala in a Syrian context means it was used there, but does not automatically mean it was made there.

[Richard G]

Doesn't the inscription indicate that it, at least, is more likely to be Syrian than Balkan?
Regards
Richard

[Edster]

I can't say where the sword was made, but the client for the inscription was likely a Shi'a. As suggested by Richard G, the reference to Ali and the famous split blade Zulfiqar sword given to Ali by the Prophet informs this view. Shi'a are more to the east like in Iraq and Persia than in the Balkans and indeed Syria that are mostly Sunni.

Regards,
Ed

[Kubur]

Unfortunately not
Please read the following text then you will know where this pala comes from

The Bektashi Order is a Sufi order and shares much in common with other Islamic mystical movements, such as the need for an experienced spiritual guide—called a baba in Bektashi parlance — as well as the doctrine of "the four gates that must be traversed": the "Sharia" (religious law), "Tariqah" (the spiritual path), "Marifa" (true knowledge), "Haqiqah" (truth).

Bektashism is also heavily permeated with Shiite concepts, such as the marked reverence of Ali, The Twelve Imams, and the ritual commemoration of Ashurah marking the Battle of Karbala. The old Persian holiday of Nowruz is celebrated by Bektashis as Imam Ali's birthday.

The Bektashi order was widespread in the Ottoman Empire, their lodges being scattered throughout Anatolia as well as many parts of particularly the southern Balkans (especially Albania, Bulgaria, Epirus, and both Vardar Macedonia and Greek Macedonia) and also in the imperial city of Constantinople. The order had close ties with the Janissary corps, the elite infantry corp of the Ottoman Army, and therefore also became mainly associated with Anatolian and Balkan Muslims of Eastern Orthodox convert origin, mainly Albanians and northern Greeks (although most leading Bektashi babas were of southern Albanian origin). With the abolition of Janissaries, the Bektashi order was banned throughout the Ottoman Empire by Sultan Mahmud II in 1826. This decision was supported by the Sunni religious elite as well as the leaders of other, more orthodox, Sufi orders. Bektashi tekkes were closed and their dervishes were exiled. Bektashis slowly regained freedom with the coming of the Tanzimat era. After the foundation of republic, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk banned all Sufi orders and shut down the lodges in 1925. Consequently, the Bektashi leadership moved to Albania and established their headquarters in the city of Tirana. Among the most famous followers of Bektashi Sufism in the 19th century Balkans were Ali Pasha and Naim Frashëri.

[Edster]

Kubur,

Well done. I never know of that group.

Ed

[qusko]

Dear All

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and investigations - very helpful!
I've found the date on the blade and tried to match it with islamic digits.
For me it looks like 1248 which gives 1832

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Unfortunately not
Please read the following text then you will know where this pala comes from

What is the connection between the Bektashi mystical order, which was "widespread in the Ottoman Empire" or any other Sufi movements, and the subject Pala, or any arm or sword for that matter? Did Sufi dervishes make or even wear Palas?

Originally Posted by TVV

The zig-zag decoration on the brass scabbard parts also looks like a typical Balkan decorative element to me.

A lot of arms made in the Balkans at one point traveled to Syria and Egypt - seeing a pala in a Syrian context means it was used there, but does not automatically mean it was made there.

Indeed, weapons traveled throughout the vast Ottoman empire and were produced and used in different places. They did not only move from Balkans to Syria, but other way as well... especially Kilijes and Palas I would think

Similarly, the zigzag decoration was/is not typical Balkan element. It is very common Ottoman (and many other locales) technique.

[Richard G]

Kubur,
Thank you, we live and learn.
Regards
Richard

[ariel]

The “ Ali/Zulfiqar” saying is attributed directly to Mohammed. As such, it was and is widely used by Shia and Sunni alike. There is no religious divide here.

Implying that this Pala is Balkan and designating it as Shia is a contradiction in terms: Balkan Muslims were and are overwhelmingly Sunni.

Bektashism was rooted among the Janissaries, but those were forcibly disbanded and their remnants were hunted and killed in and after 1826, well before this Pala was created. Bektashi order was banned throughout the entire Ottoman Empire. It gradually got revived somewhat with the advent of Tanzimat era (1839-1876) but their numbers within the Balkan Muslims was negligible. With total abolition of Bektashism by Ataturk in 1925 they moved to Albania and established their headquarters there.
Are we to believe that this Pala was created after that?

We seem to have a lot of questionable arguments here.......

[TVV]

Ariel is right, the Ali/Zulfiqar inscription was quite popular and used throughout the Ottoman Empire, and cannot really be used to point to a specific area of origin.

Here is one on a yataghan from Asia Minor:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18304

And another one, also on a Turkish yataghan:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4448

And another one on a Bosnian yataghan:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12864

Note the similarity in the style of the coftgari decoration of Jose's yataghan and the pala in this thread.

[Kubur]

I see different levels of knowledge here.
I gave you keys to understand, you can pick up what you want.
I'm sure other members understand very well...

[ariel]

Kubur,
There are two points on which we all agree:
1. This is an Ottoman Pala
2. It is genuinely old, likely 19 century.

But the problem is that in the absence of place of manufacture indicated within the inscription we cannot pinpoint its origin. Ottoman Empire was an early model of small scale “globalization”: there were several foci of mass production of blades of uniform design and distribution across the land: Anatolia proper, adjacent Syria, Bosnia, Bulgaria. We can in some cases pinpoint the origin of the entire weapons: Zeibek yataghans or Bulgarian karakulaks. More often, we can attribute them by the handle: yataghans with Karabela-like handles hint at North Africa, with thinnish rounded ears suggest Greece, with smooth round coral indicate Foca etc.

Palas are significantly more homogeneous: same blade contour, same handle and scabbard, same inscriptions with “ master/owner” having uniformly Muslim names, “Ali/Zulfiqar”, “seven sleepers”, same symbols. Perhaps, only contoured grips ( finger stalls) can swing the likelihood to Balkan origin. Bektashism and Shia/Sunni divide play no role.

Manner of blade inscription had always been very confusing and here we have to utilize our individual “gut feeling”. Alex and myself tilt toward Syria, you tilt toward the Balkans. I just do not see a way for any of us to be certain about the origin of this Pala, and that was the gist of my comments. We can only cast doubt on the validity of our opponent’s arguments but cannot bring up the decisive one in favor of our position. Either of our attributions can be correct, but we just cannot prove it.

Perhaps, we can leave it at that?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In the cartouche over two lines is the Arabic …(which I cannot get the second line of... but the top line says in transliterated English)

Ahmed iliyas farhar sahib al malak al ahad

which means: This is my sword made for me by Ahmad Illyas.

[qusko]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

In the cartouche over two lines is the Arabic …(which I cannot get the second line of... but the top line says in transliterated English)

Ahmed iliyas farhar sahib al malak al ahad

which means: This is my sword made for me by Ahmad Illyas.

Thank you Ibrahiim for translation