Ancient Zealot daggers

[Jim McDougall]

In recent news items that concern newly revealed ancient writings said to be those from Judas, there have been interesting suggestions concerning this central figure in Biblical history. One of these suggest that Judas may have been involved in a group of Zealots said to be known as 'Siccarri', with the term referring to a form of dagger.

Without getting into theosophical discussion, and keeping things objective, I am interested in knowing what form of dagger this might have been. While these regions of Biblical history were occupied of course by the Romans in these times , and the term is Latin, could the dagger have been of local form? Does anyone have illustrations of the type daggers in use in Israel and Judea during these historic times?

Again, my question concerns strictly the typology of daggers of the times that may qualify as those known as 'siccarri', aside from political or religious data.

Best regards,
Jim

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In recent news items that concern newly revealed ancient writings said to be those from Judas, there have been interesting suggestions concerning this central figure in Biblical history. One of these suggest that Judas may have been involved in a group of Zealots said to be known as 'Siccarri', with the term referring to a form of dagger.

Without getting into theosophical discussion, and keeping things objective, I am interested in knowing what form of dagger this might have been. While these regions of Biblical history were occupied of course by the Romans in these times , and the term is Latin, could the dagger have been of local form? Does anyone have illustrations of the type daggers in use in Israel and Judea during these historic times?

Again, my question concerns strictly the typology of daggers of the times that may qualify as those known as 'siccarri', aside from political or religious data.

Best regards,
Jim

I guess the source for this is Josephicus Flavius, "Judean wars". I don't have this book anymore, but, by memory, he writes about sicari carrying sicas, what he describes to be a short sword, similar to that of greeks (I guess it is some variation of gladius). Since their specialty was mass scale assasinations, I guess it had to be rather small.

P.S. my fault. Attached is a gladiator with sica, which is sort of like bowie .

[drdavid]

The latin dictionary translates Sica as dagger or dirk so Siccarri ?knifeman
As an interesting aside the latin Cica is the medical term for scar or an incision mark so the Sica leaves a cica....hmmm I seem to have too much time on my hands
DrD

[ariel]

Does this help?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2036

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much for the responses guys! Interesting perspective DrDavid with the term cica (=incision) and the term sica. I always very much admire linguistics and how much pertinant information can be derived from word and term associations, semantics and transliteration.

Rivkin, actually my interest in this topic began with the recent media articles and National Geographic documentary on the ancient document holding the text of the Gospel of Judas, which has recently surfaced after being virtually lost for nearly 1700 years. My reference to the Sicarii comes from an article from the Dallas Morning News (by Susan Hogan-Albach, section G, April 12,2003). In it the author discusses possibilities for the name/word (?) commonly associated with Judas, Iscariot. She asks if it is a surname, name of a town, or "...a corruption of the Latin word 'sicarius' referring to a dagger carried by terrorists known as the Sicarii".
While there are numerous interpretations of the political dealings and motivations of this group, it is stated, as noted, that they were known for assassinations, with these daggers presumably. Possibly the daggers were simply symbolic for the militant function of the group?
In any case, the illustration of the gladiator with a 'sica' gives a reasonable idea of the form, but as you suggest, possibly derivative of the larger swords.
It seems like clandestine activity such as assassinations would call for a more concealable weapon though.

Ariel, thank you for that thread, which is indeed helpful, I must have missed that one! It really is interesting to see the types of weapons used during these Biblical times, a period it seems not often dealt with in weaponry.

Thank you again guys!
All the best,
Jim

[VANDOO]

LOOSE ROBES AND TOGAS WOULD LEND THEMSELVES TO CARYING CONCEALED WEAPONS SO THE KNIVES COULD HAVE BEEN FAIRLY LARGE AND CARRIED IN SOME TYPE OF CONCELED HARNESS. BUT AN ASSASINS BLADE DOSEN'T NEED TO BE VERY LARGE AS SURPRIZE IS THE USUAL TECKNIQUE , AND BATTLE IS TO BE AVOIDED. IT KIND OF MAKES ONE WONDER WHAT SORT OF WEAPONS PAUL (SAUL) USED BEFORE HE BECAME A CHRISTIAN.

[fernando]

Hi Jim
May i save you some search time.
http://home.ix.netcom.com/~kiyoweap/...p/akinakes.htm
There seems to be no native name for the Zealots sica, as instead they picked the then current term, or maybe even the model, from the the Romans, to call themselves, or by the rest of their people, as Sicarii, which would be Aramaic ... actually a term still in use in portuguese; Sicários ... this with a conotation later applied by Romans, to make it become a perjorative term. It aparently was them who nick named Judas as Iscariotes ( Sicarius ) to distinguished from other timely known Judas.
Kind regards
fernando

[ariel]

Traditionally (and, probably, correctly) Iscariot was interpreted as corrupted rendition of Kirya (pl. Krayot): something like "settlement(s)" in Hebrew. In Israel there are quite a lot of Krayot: Kiryat Menahem, Kiryat Motzkin etc, etc. So, Judas was "...of the settlements". He likely lived in the vicinity of Jerusalem, in one of the outlying suburbs.

[Jens Nordlunde]

If you were an assassin, and your speciality was to sneak up on people from behind and cut their throats, I think a knife like the one shown by Ariel in post 1 might be handy, but for normal use rather unpractical.

[Rick]

It reminds me a bit of the shotel , also the korambit .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2036

The korambit was (IIRC) deployed with a sudden upward sweep thereby disemboweling the person attacked . One can also see this method as the primary purpose of the rencong .

Stomach wounds were invariably fatal .

[fernando]

Yes Ariel, Rielish qeriyoth.
But i had read that this was considered to be inconclusive, by modern Theologists and Bible exegetists, as not seeing much sense in a guy being named as from the place, and not as from such a place. The alternatives are that he was from an actual place in Samaria called Sycharis, hence ’sychar” [isch’sycar], the man of Sychar, allowing toponímy ‘ischarioth”.
On the other hand, some other experts do not exclude that he was named after Sicarii/Sicarius, in a non friendly association with the dagger circuit.
I came to see this version as a more plausible one, but not excluding that both versions could have existed, like Romans and non followers making a melange of both terms and atributions.
Sorry, this doesn't help to find details about the Sica.
Regards

[fearn]

Hi All,

Just saw this. My understanding of the term "sica" was that it was a product of Roman society. Basically, "sica" is a generic term for a single-edged, curved knives. This also had a strong social component: good Romans used straight, two-edged weapons such as the gladius (sword) and pugio (dagger). Only barbarians (and gladiators, and other such "uncultured scum" ) would use curved, single-edged blades.

So far as I know, "sica" did not define which side of the curve the edge was on. Sica is pretty obviously the predecessor to the modern english sickle, but so far as I know, it was perfectly possible for a sica to be sharpened on the outer edge instead. I think most people reading this could come up with a long list of knives that could be classified as "sica" in this way.

Given the social context of "straight, double-edged=good Roman" vs. "curved, single-edged=foreign," it's not surprising that there would be Jewish sicarii. What I think might get missed are the social and political connotations of the term.

F

[Tim Simmons]

The Romans and presumably the people adopting there way like the ancient British used bronze sickle shaped knives to scrap the dirt off there bodies before the advent of soap, perhaps they to were "sica".

[fernando]

Hi Fearn
The Romans dominating the territory with their culture, Latin terms and goods became popular to the locals. Apparently the Zealot Sica, in name and form, was a Roman weapon, admissibly with a concealling dimension, or in its known full pattern used by Thracian gladiators, said to have some 35 cms blade, and 45-55 cms total length. Naturally the Zealots, familiar with the Roman weapons, found this being the ideal piece for their trick, whether or not resized to each one's taste.
The origin of the term had no conotation, Sicarii being a social way of life, so to say. Soon after, with the persistent atitude of these extremist Zealots against Rome, and their mixing with growing numbers of vulgar robbers, the Latin was endorsed with a pejorative conotation, with the addition of "HIRED" to the Sicarii interpretation, these guys becoming what we call now Gun Men. Eventually we still use the term Sicário in Portuguese, with about the same conotation.
This is recently said to be the key for the charade with Judas recent (double ) naming research.
Assuming he was a Samarian, also the local Jewish tribes tended to call him Sicarius in a pejorative sense, and in a Roman fashion, aside he was from a village with a similar name sounding. Quicker the Romans would name him for his gear, and not from his birth place.
fernando

[fearn]

Thanks for the extra info, Fernando. That makes a lot of sense.

I think that the scraper that Tim is referring to is called a stirgil, though, not a sica.

F

[Rivkin]

To be honest, biblical archeology is what convinced me to not pursue a career in history - one of the more specalutive, corrupt and politicized fields of history out there. I would with great caution any religious writing that claims to be of the period.

I found Josephicus' book "Jewish antiquities". He says that the knife was a local development, similar in size to persian akinak, and in its curvature was like that of a sicae that romans use, so they became called sicae.

Concerning Judas being one of them - sicariis were viciously opposed to sanhedrin and generally to rich and hellenized, and especially to the sadducees. Most of the people they killed were those whom they seen as collaborators, not the romans per se. They constantly kidnapped members of high priest's family and even murdered one high priest himself.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by ariel

Does this help?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2036

Boy did I miss this thread. I did see the piece in the magazine - and with the shape and materials used, I would posit that this is a ceremonial agricultural tool, possible for use in the first cutting of the harvest (a custom of the day). This would not be used by the Sicarii who did assinassinations of Romans and Roman collaborators.

[Jim McDougall]

Just reading more of the great responses, and much appreciate hearing from everybody on this. This field of study has always seemed to escape my attention, possibly because of all the controversy, as noted by Rivkin. I'm glad to finally delve into it, and am especially impressed by the extremely esoteric knowledge constantly shared by all of you in your posts.

I think it is extremely interesting to see etymology, semantics and colloquial terms play a key role in historical investigation here and how socially applied terms evolved into perjoratives ( recalls similar instance in India where the practice of 'thuggee' evolved into the perjorative 'thug' for hoodlums etc.)
I honestly had not thought of the Roman term 'sica' and its apparant root for sickle either (really rusty in Latin

I had read of the possible derivation of Judas' name (?) Iscariot to one of the locations as Ariel mentioned, but it seems that the most compelling association holds to the more socially applied connotation to 'sicarri', and the Zealot groups as noted by Fernando and Fearn.
I agree that stealth attacks would require very concealable daggers and that the term 'sicarri' may well apply generally to daggers of varying sizes, up to those used in combat.

Thank you again guys for adding all the data on this, excellent discussion as well! !!!

All the best,
Jim

Fernando, thanks very much for the excellent thread link to the akinakes, has some great info....good to hear from you!!!

[ariel]

Regarding Roman gladiatorial weapons: one of the most famous talmudic personalities, Rabbi Resh Lakish, used (before his turn to religious life) to be a rather famous "robber". Since other famous Rabbis never despised him and one even gave him his sister for a wife, the assumption is that he was an anti-Roman guerilla rather than a highway bandit. Nevertheless, even after becoming a Rabbi, the old ways beckoned hard, and he, from time to time, hired himself out as a gladiator. Strange and complex people one can find there...
This being the case, it is likely that anti-Roman Sicarii used traditional Roman weapons. At that time, Judea was under foreign control for at least 300-400 years (Greek-Syrian and then Roman), and the weapons in use were cosmopolitan.

[Jim McDougall]

Ariel,
Outstanding, well thought out and beautifully worded ! I completely agree, and the material on the 'robber' activities and the Rabbi is extremely interesting information as well. Concise, comprehensive and pretty much conclusive post that addresses my original question categorically. Now to find more on those contemporary Roman weapons in use.
Nicely done , thank you
All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

please ignore this one

[fernando]

After all, the Sica was quite a famous weapon . Brought around by Thracians and Dacians, adopted by Romans and Zealots, everybody had a go at it. Forcingly there were several variations, but with the basic shape of a reaping device, so it seems. Here can be seen a Tracian Sica Supina, made in wood, for trainning purposes, found within the barracks of a Roman legion, in Oberaden. http://www.arsdimicandi.net/ad_1_0000b0.htm. Rudis is the name given by Romans for sword wood replicas, which can be either trainning pieces for the army exercises and gladiator rookies, as well as presentation swords to victorious gladiators, signifying they could retire from such tough business.
Dacian Sicas can be seen in Trajan's Column.http://cheiron.mcmaster.ca/~trajan/b...anpage.cgi?349
However i am personally convinced that the non combat Sica version, that one of Sicarius, be them Roman Sicarius, Zealot Sicarius, or the unamed Scum of the period, would be a shorter handy piece. Whether these concealed daggers were double or single edged, or simply free style, is something to be found out, as the chronicles do not coincide on this point.

[Jim McDougall]

More great info and threads Fernando, thank you!! I think you are right, a smaller handy form would be more in line with the stealth needed in carrying out the activities of sicarri. As Jens mentioned earlier, such a smaller and curved form would be ideal for such purpose, but not likely in more conventional combat or defense.
It seems like references to sica/sickle and such blades with inside cutting edge may well have been for throat slashing, as Jens suggests, but also very effective at the upward sweep in abdominal attack, as noted by Rick.
One thought that comes with Fernando's note on the Dacian form of sica, it seems that I had read somewhere that the Dacians had sickle type edged weapons, and one drawing I had seen captioned it a Dacian 'razor' knife.
Best regards,
Jim

[ariel]

In American prison parlance it would be called a Shiv.

[Jim McDougall]

Ahah Ariel!!! Good one! Its been a while since I heard that term......not from personal experience mind you !!!!
Now my curiosity goes again....where does the 'shiv' term come from?

Best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

there you are
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiv_%28weapon%29

[fearn]

This is a great discussion. One point I'm not convinced on, though, is that a sica was a strongly defined type of blade. We could be dealing something similar to the English "knife" or the Chinese/Burmese/etc. "dao," where the term is loosely defined, but (as always) everyone in the culture knows what one looks like. I'm guessing that we can add "sica" to this group of general blade terms. This contrasts with terms like "gladius," which seems to be a strongly defined, two-edged military short sword used by the infantry.

"Sicarius" makes sense as a category, too. After all, in English we have gunmen, hatchetmen, hired knives, etc. The term "Sicarius" seems to belong to the same category. Terms like hatchetman are a bit different from, say, swordsman or gladiator, after all.

My 0.02 denarii,

Fearn

[fernando]

Hi Fearn
Quite Right.
It is all about a generic, with a prevailing necessity for an adding term or context, to make the difference, both in form, purpose and conotation.
One can follow the source of the modern english Sickle, ex-midlle english Sikel, ex-old english Sicol; it derives from latin Sêcula (vulgar Sicila), as Secãre for cutting. Therefore a term of generic base, like calling it a cutter, reason why Plinius used a two word term to refer the intended object by its shape : Dentium Sicas, as it resembled a tooth ( of an hippo ... ).
Passing by Jewish lands, one could admit that the sica for them was a usefull roman generic handy dagger, with no need for a more precise name. The conotation given by romans ( Flavius Josephus ) and others, to perjorate on the guys that used daggers on a massive subversive sense, doesn't apply for the shape or conotation of the piece per se.
Then you get to Rome, when they needed to call a name to the dagger brought by the Thracians; again a double word term: Sica Supina, from supination, a sort of laying bent posture. However Juvenal's double word atribution to this Thracian ( and Dacian ) specific weapon , was twice meaningfull: Falx Supina ... Falx (Falce) being a determined anatomical form , like one in the brains.
Then i eventually pick the term used in (latin tongued) Portugal for Sickle, and the term is Foice, from prior Fouce, obviously the Falx derivation; here intended as a farming tool. When used as a weapon, in medieval times, attached to a long shaft, it had no precise names as popular as simply Fouce ( Sickle), only distinguished by the context. Amazingly the local farmers verb for reaping with the sickle is Segar, as in latin Secãre= cutting with Sica.
In a certain manner it is all entangled, like if languages are globalized for already long time.
Sorry for all the nonsense.
fernando

[fearn]

Hi Fernando,

That makes sense to me. I like your derivation of sickle, BTW.

One note about the falx--it's a tool too. Long handled, curved-bladed choppers were used for coppicing oaks and other trees certainly by Medieval times, and probably back into the Bronze Age (coppicing is an *old* art in Europe). The English brown bill is similar to the falx, and both are similar to the "bank blades" one can buy at a modern hardware store. All of these blades were more popular when coppicing was a major rural industry, and before pruning shears became popular. You can still find them around, for use in clearing brush. In fact, one of them is shown in May's National Geographic, where it's being using by the Inupiat to cut up a bowhead whale. But I digress...

After wandering through that linguistic thicket, it's interesting that so many cultures have some broadly defined term(s) for work cutters (i.e. knife, dao, parang, etc), sometimes weaponized (i.e. combat knife), and specific terms for weapon blades that have little utilitarian use (i.e. longsword, jian, katana, gladius, etc). Probably there's a basic bit of human psychology in there.

F

[fernando]

Hi Fearn
About the falx, maybe i didn't express as i wished. Naturally the falx=fouce is basicaly a tool, later "improved" for weaponry. The anatomy aproach was because i couldn't yet figure out whether was the so called brain structure shape that gave the name to the tool, or vice versa.
About people's broad or keen definition of either tools/weapons and objective weapons, i was considering that, in old days, the tools were the optional ( available ) weapons, therefore the little existance of old weapons names based on their unique lethal purpose like, as you remind, the Gladius adopted by Romans.
fernando
By the way
http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Dagger