late 17th or 18th century French blade

Iain · 6th January 2019, 01:22 PM

Hi all,

First of all this sword is not in my collection but was sold at Hermann Historica in 2013 and then offered later at Del Mar but not sold. I'm curious about the blade and to see any others that correspond, perhaps in a European hilt that is more easily dated.

I am well aware of what the current hilt on it is.

All help gratefully received!

Jim McDougall · 8th January 2019, 02:16 AM

Hi Iain,
Im pretty sure you are well aware of what the hilt is!! "

I thought I would try to get ahead of the stampede of responses here with what I think the blade is. Surprising this never sold...must have had a pretty steep reserve, but this is a remarkable blade.

When you suggest this is French, I am wondering if there were other clues in the description or close ups of the engraved panel and motif. Actually the suggestion is well placed, as these kinds of motif and forte panel were a popular style in the late 17th into 18th on Continental cavalry swords for officers.
The style of the motif does remind me of the Caissagnard type of Nantes in mid 18th but certainly was known before that. It existed on hangers in England in the previous century.

It would take considerable review of catalogs and auctions for finding close match.....but at this point I would say...cavalry officers broadsword, Continental Europe, early 18th or late 17th.

Extremely nice seeing these very old blades in the Saharan context, setting in mind many fascinating possibilities!

If anybody out there has the Christian Aries series on French swords there might be a match.

Iain · 10th January 2019, 01:14 PM

Thanks for adding your insights to this Jim, I know this is an oddly specific topic, but I would have thought a similar blade would be lurking out there somewhere! I agree on the dating.

colin henshaw · 10th January 2019, 01:45 PM

Interesting to observe that the level of corrosion and general patina to both blade and hilt appear the same ...

Iain · 10th January 2019, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Interesting to observe that the level of corrosion and general patina to both blade and hilt appear the same ...

The hilt is in my opinion the first fitted once the blade entered the Sahel. I have a few of my own where I suspect the same.

Jim McDougall · 10th January 2019, 11:49 PM

Iain, its one of those blade patterns that I just know Ive seen, but cannot place it. I know the motif is often seen on European blades of 17th-18th as I noted, but it seems mostly on sabres and hangers. I thought Wagner might have something but didn't.
As Colin has noted, and you confirmed, it is tempting to consider this blade and hilt are homogenous to the original arrival of the blade in the Saharan sphere. While the blades into Sudan are generally in much later context primarily via Mamluk contexts it seems, we know that blades were coming into the Sahara far earlier.

I hope others keep an eye out for one of these blades, I know I will.

Iain · 11th January 2019, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Iain, its one of those blade patterns that I just know Ive seen, but cannot place it. I know the motif is often seen on European blades of 17th-18th as I noted, but it seems mostly on sabres and hangers. I thought Wagner might have something but didn't.
As Colin has noted, and you confirmed, it is tempting to consider this blade and hilt are homogenous to the original arrival of the blade in the Saharan sphere. While the blades into Sudan are generally in much later context primarily via Mamluk contexts it seems, we know that blades were coming into the Sahara far earlier.

I hope others keep an eye out for one of these blades, I know I will.

Hi Jim, I don't want to diverge too far into the blade trade in this thread, however the Mamluk context for the trade is generally earlier rather than later.

Back to the topic at hand, the pattern seems closest to examples dating from the 30 years war period. The attached is a German piece with a similar two fuller configuration.

6th January 2019, 01:22 PM	#1
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	late 17th or 18th century French blade Hi all, First of all this sword is not in my collection but was sold at Hermann Historica in 2013 and then offered later at Del Mar but not sold. I'm curious about the blade and to see any others that correspond, perhaps in a European hilt that is more easily dated. I am well aware of what the current hilt on it is. All help gratefully received! Attached Images

8th January 2019, 02:16 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Iain, Im pretty sure you are well aware of what the hilt is!! " I thought I would try to get ahead of the stampede of responses here with what I think the blade is. Surprising this never sold...must have had a pretty steep reserve, but this is a remarkable blade. When you suggest this is French, I am wondering if there were other clues in the description or close ups of the engraved panel and motif. Actually the suggestion is well placed, as these kinds of motif and forte panel were a popular style in the late 17th into 18th on Continental cavalry swords for officers. The style of the motif does remind me of the Caissagnard type of Nantes in mid 18th but certainly was known before that. It existed on hangers in England in the previous century. It would take considerable review of catalogs and auctions for finding close match.....but at this point I would say...cavalry officers broadsword, Continental Europe, early 18th or late 17th. Extremely nice seeing these very old blades in the Saharan context, setting in mind many fascinating possibilities! If anybody out there has the Christian Aries series on French swords there might be a match.

10th January 2019, 01:14 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Thanks for adding your insights to this Jim, I know this is an oddly specific topic, but I would have thought a similar blade would be lurking out there somewhere! I agree on the dating.

10th January 2019, 01:45 PM	#4
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Interesting to observe that the level of corrosion and general patina to both blade and hilt appear the same ...

10th January 2019, 11:49 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Iain, its one of those blade patterns that I just know Ive seen, but cannot place it. I know the motif is often seen on European blades of 17th-18th as I noted, but it seems mostly on sabres and hangers. I thought Wagner might have something but didn't. As Colin has noted, and you confirmed, it is tempting to consider this blade and hilt are homogenous to the original arrival of the blade in the Saharan sphere. While the blades into Sudan are generally in much later context primarily via Mamluk contexts it seems, we know that blades were coming into the Sahara far earlier. I hope others keep an eye out for one of these blades, I know I will.