Possible ??? Native American use Musket.

Norman McCormick · 28th November 2018, 07:52 PM

Hi All,
I have acquired a rather well used musket which may or may not have been used by a Native American. It would appear to have been originally a flintlock which has been 'blacksmith' converted to percussion lock. The original ramrod is missing and a 'blacksmith' forged replacement is in its stead. The tacks are iron and not brass (magnet tested), some of them are missing but you can see where these have been. I know some African muskets were decorated with tacks also it is not one of the recognised trade type muskets. I will let the photographs tell the rest and I look forward to your thoughts.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 28th November 2018, 07:54 PM

More photographs.

TVV · 28th November 2018, 08:41 PM

The use of reptile skin for one of the bands is certainly reminiscent of African items.

Norman McCormick · 28th November 2018, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

The use of reptile skin for one of the bands is certainly reminiscent of African items.

My thoughts too but then again plenty of reptiles in N.America. I must admit the reptile skin has thrown me a bit but if it could be I.D. it would be positive proof of origin. Thanks for your input.
Regards,
Norman.

colin henshaw · 28th November 2018, 08:52 PM

Hi Norman

The reptile skin and hide bindings, along with the general patina, certainly have more of an African "look" to me, rather than Native American...

Regards.

Norman McCormick · 28th November 2018, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Hi Norman

The reptile skin and hide bindings, along with the general patina, certainly have more of an African "look" to me, rather than Native American...

Regards.

Hi Colin,
Looks that way and as I am in the U.K. it would make more sense although it is not unusual to get Native American bits here particularly from what is now Canada and that's what prompted me to opine the possibility of Native American origin.
Regards,
Norman.

colin henshaw · 28th November 2018, 09:18 PM

As an aside ... there are some very interesting talks by "Bad Hand" (Living History School) on YouTube, in which he says American Indians would often not bother with ramrods on their muskets, for rapid loading/firing on horseback... They would also commonly cut the barrel down short, he says.

Bob A · 28th November 2018, 10:15 PM

It occurs to me that it might hail from south of the (US) border; no shortage of reptiles there.

I confess ignorance of the possible use of reptile hides in that part of the world, however. Just speculation.

Kubur · 28th November 2018, 10:53 PM

I would say Mali or Congo....

http://theresalwaysmoretolearn.blogs...illage-of.html

Norman McCormick · 29th November 2018, 07:31 PM

Thank-you for your insights gentlemen. I know the African attribution is by far the most likely and I'm going to approach the Zoological Dept of my local university to try and determine exactly what species supplied the hide barrel band and therefore the origin of the piece.
Regards,
Norman.

kahnjar1 · 29th November 2018, 08:29 PM

Hi Norman,
In the 4th pic from the top, is that something written/impressed into the centre of the side plate, or is it just the way the light is playing on the surface? Looks like 3 impressions.
Stu

Martin Lubojacky · 30th November 2018, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Thank-you for your insights gentlemen. I know the African attribution is by far the most likely and I'm going to approach the Zoological Dept of my local university to try and determine exactly what species supplied the hide barrel band and therefore the origin of the piece.
Regards,
Norman.

It looks like one of monitor lizards (varan) hide. The range where the African locals used this hide is very wide. If I may guess in it could most probably be from Equator to the Tropic of Cancer and from Senegal to Ethiopian borders with Sudan

Norman McCormick · 2nd December 2018, 07:37 PM

Hi Stu,
Apologies for the late reply. On close inspection the marks are just the result of corrosion and unfortunately not makers stamps.

Hi Martin,
Thanks for the suggestions, it gives me something to go on.

Regards to you Both,
Norman.

Edster · 2nd December 2018, 11:23 PM

Norman,

The nail placements show no rational/artistic pattern. One has 5 nails (one is missing, but point remains); the other has 8, but looks like maybe 3 are missing. They are remindful of star constellations and could give the piece some sort of meaning. Just a thought.

Regards,
Ed

Norman McCormick · 9th December 2018, 06:40 PM

Hi Ed,
I will have another look re your suggestion. Thanks for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

28th November 2018, 07:52 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Possible ??? Native American use Musket. Hi All, I have acquired a rather well used musket which may or may not have been used by a Native American. It would appear to have been originally a flintlock which has been 'blacksmith' converted to percussion lock. The original ramrod is missing and a 'blacksmith' forged replacement is in its stead. The tacks are iron and not brass (magnet tested), some of them are missing but you can see where these have been. I know some African muskets were decorated with tacks also it is not one of the recognised trade type muskets. I will let the photographs tell the rest and I look forward to your thoughts. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

28th November 2018, 07:54 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	More photographs. Attached Images

28th November 2018, 10:53 PM	#9
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I would say Mali or Congo.... http://theresalwaysmoretolearn.blogs...illage-of.html Attached Images

28th November 2018, 08:41 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,621	The use of reptile skin for one of the bands is certainly reminiscent of African items.

28th November 2018, 08:52 PM	#5
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Norman The reptile skin and hide bindings, along with the general patina, certainly have more of an African "look" to me, rather than Native American... Regards.

28th November 2018, 09:18 PM	#7
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	As an aside ... there are some very interesting talks by "Bad Hand" (Living History School) on YouTube, in which he says American Indians would often not bother with ramrods on their muskets, for rapid loading/firing on horseback... They would also commonly cut the barrel down short, he says.

28th November 2018, 10:15 PM	#8
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	It occurs to me that it might hail from south of the (US) border; no shortage of reptiles there. I confess ignorance of the possible use of reptile hides in that part of the world, however. Just speculation.

29th November 2018, 07:31 PM	#10
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Thank-you for your insights gentlemen. I know the African attribution is by far the most likely and I'm going to approach the Zoological Dept of my local university to try and determine exactly what species supplied the hide barrel band and therefore the origin of the piece. Regards, Norman.

29th November 2018, 08:29 PM	#11
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Norman, In the 4th pic from the top, is that something written/impressed into the centre of the side plate, or is it just the way the light is playing on the surface? Looks like 3 impressions. Stu

2nd December 2018, 07:37 PM	#13
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Stu, Apologies for the late reply. On close inspection the marks are just the result of corrosion and unfortunately not makers stamps. Hi Martin, Thanks for the suggestions, it gives me something to go on. Regards to you Both, Norman.

2nd December 2018, 11:23 PM	#14
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	Norman, The nail placements show no rational/artistic pattern. One has 5 nails (one is missing, but point remains); the other has 8, but looks like maybe 3 are missing. They are remindful of star constellations and could give the piece some sort of meaning. Just a thought. Regards, Ed

9th December 2018, 06:40 PM	#15
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Ed, I will have another look re your suggestion. Thanks for your interest. My Regards, Norman.