European Hunting sword- asian style...

[francantolin]

Hello everybody,

When I bought this small sword,
I first thought it was an asian-chinese sword ( especially for the shape of the brass guard,
I received it and I think it is more an european hunting sword,
Germany ? France ?
19th century ?

sadly no inscriptions or stamps on the blade but the hilt is really fancy,
bone or ivory with nice pattern ( made with ???)

Can anybody help for a ''better scan'' ?!

Kind regards

Francky

[Jon MB]

Nice. And mysterious. A 'chinoiserie' piece -(European in imagined Asian style)? Vietnamese?

Is the hilt on straight?

[francantolin]

Hello,
Thank you for your message Jon,

Yes the hilt is ''fixed'' and the different pieces seems to ''join'' good with each other.
I don't think it's a composite dagger-sword...

certainly an oriental influence for european people as you said
( orientalistes... )

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting item, and the European 'hunting sword' idea is I think pretty much spot on. The hilt shape recalls the couteau de chasse hunting hangers of the 18th century, while the blade seems very much Chinese dao.

The decoration on the hilt is indeed chinoiserie (Chinese style) and while I am unsure may be of the plum blossom theme (which usually looked more like seaweed in these applications).

Though the guard is very much like Chinese jian in style, in the 18th century Europeans, probably greatly inspired by the East Indies trade and the VOC eagerly looked for exotic styles in material culture and fashion. This of course extended to weaponry and such exotica in sword design was often termed 'Tonquinese' which actually meant indirectly 'Chinese' (in the west Tonkin meant N. Viet Nam while Cochin referred to the south).

This derived from a mixture of the fact that the VOC had a factory in Tonkin (North Vietnam) until 1707 and later items actually produced in Peking were regarded in that context. To complicate matters some hilts were made using black shakudo motif, from the Japan points in the VOC network.

Aylward (1945, p.57) notes..." the Company (VOC) brought over some Chinese workmen to Europe who produced in Amsterdam".
This was of course in direct contact with Solingen, and it seems I have heard of other Chinese workers in East Europe as well.

In the mid 18th century the famed 'pandour' units of Austrian and Hungarian armies favored the 'Oriental' look , which often used various Ottoman as well as other tribal fashions and weapons of such styling. This hilt style is close to that effect, but further with Chinese styling and apparently blade.

Such exotic weaponry was very much status oriented and while not necessarily to these type units, it may well have been a gentlemans weapon alluding to them.

On the other hand, the presence of a Chinese blade on this might move the possibility back to China, where the Qian Long emperor in the latter 18th century very much favored 'foreign' styling in sword hilts and perhaps this design was in that manner.

Unique example with these possibilities.

[Philip]

The blade doesn't look Chinese at all to me. The almost universal characteristic of the fullering on Chinese curved single-edged blades (sabers and the like) is that they begin a short distance ahead of the guard. The forte thus being flat, giving the blade a wedge shaped section in that area. This flat area may be just plain, or it may be fitted for a tunkou or a metal sleeve usually with a scalloped profile. A fuller that runs all the way back to the shoulders of the blade at the junction of the tang is not in keeping with the tradition.

[Philip]

The decoration on the hilt is nowhere near any ornamental motif I've seen on either a Chinese or Vietnamese weapon.

[Philip]

Is the guard made "in the solid" or is there an elliptical mouth or opening where the blade comes out, to reveal a hollow center? Typically, a jian guard on a Qing-era hilt is hollow, to accept the end of the scabbard in order to achieve a weather-resistant fit. (coincidentally a similar fit is seen in the construction of later Ottoman kilij guards, although the sealing effect is negated somewhat by the dorsal slot on the throat of the scabbard to admit the curvature and contour of the blade)

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Philip! Your insight on this is invaluable as you are the foremost authority on Chinese and East European arms in my opinion.

I see what you mean on the blade and fullering. What I was suggesting was that it seemed atypical for any hirschfanger or couteau de chasse blade I have seen, and perhaps in this context seemed Chinese in gestalt.

Having said that, what I was suggesting here was that this light sword overall may have been made in Europe recalling Chinese influences as I had noted with the imports brought in as well as in some cases workers from China being present in some workshops. It seems I have seen similar examples of these kinds of swords somewhere, perhaps it was in a Polish reference.

Clearly this decoration is not Chinese, but it does seem to allude to the style as seen from an interpretive view. Along with the also interpretive style of the guard (but here with notably European decorative character in the floral) ...perhaps this is indeed a version of sidearm meant to allude to the Chinese character in fashionable elements of swords of the times.



I recall talking with you some years back on the so called 'Tonquinese' style mentioned in Aylward, "The Smallsword in England" (1945). It seems to be that those influences in that sword form might have well extended into other swords such as these intended to recall or allude to such style from China.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Philip

The blade doesn't look Chinese at all to me. The almost universal characteristic of the fullering on Chinese curved single-edged blades (sabers and the like) is that they begin a short distance ahead of the guard. The forte thus being flat, giving the blade a wedge shaped section in that area. This flat area may be just plain, or it may be fitted for a tunkou or a metal sleeve usually with a scalloped profile. A fuller that runs all the way back to the shoulders of the blade at the junction of the tang is not in keeping with the tradition.

Here's a pic to show what I'm talking about. Here are 3 Chinese saber blades of "willow leaf" type, narrow and with curvature through most of length. The important thing is where the fullering ends. You'll note that the grooves don't run back to the guard. Even simple uni-channel designs all end a similar distance ahead of the guard.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Philip

Here's a pic to show what I'm talking about. Here are 3 Chinese saber blades of "willow leaf" type, narrow and with curvature through most of length. The important thing is where the fullering ends. You'll note that the grooves don't run back to the guard. Even simple uni-channel designs all end a similar distance ahead of the guard.

Perfectly illustrated and explained Philip! I see exactly what you mean.

I wish I could think of where Ive seen something like this, seems like it was one of those Polish collection books which included not just Polish but other forms. I think possibly the Bashford Dean (1928) might have something as well but need to check ("European Court & Hunting Swords").

[francantolin]

Hello And thank you all,

really interesting comments about european/ asian swords.
I found this sword with the same guard.
Sold in an auction by Thierry de Maigret
( well known auction house in France) who has the same shape,
hunting knife, 18th century with bone hilt...

[francantolin]

Or this one who is exactly the same !
sold as a hunting dagger .

With the interesting engravings on the blade, German ?
or Pandour- Austrian/Ungarian army units as Jim said...

[Jim McDougall]

Actually this style of engraved motif is a theme termed 'Caissignard' and seems to have been prevalent in Nantes, France in the mid to latter 18th c. The 'Pandour' units of Austria were disbanded c. 1747 but similar auxiliary units were later formed in Germany as well as France. The style often recognized these units with a sword waving hussar and sometimes with the motto 'viva pandur'. These markings were often on plug bayonets as well as seen in R.D.C. Evans "The Plug Bayonet".

Other devices which often accompanied the turbaned figure were combinations of magic or occult characters in various arrangement.
Intriguing swords which were considered most fashionable during times when these unusual followings had become quite popular even into the regal settings.

[francantolin]

Hello Jim,

Really thank's a lot for these informations about Caissignard in Nantes and ritual/magic signification.
Now I'm quite sure it's a french hunting sword/dagger.

Kind regards

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by francantolin

Hello Jim,

Really thank's a lot for these informations about Caissignard in Nantes and ritual/magic signification.
Now I'm quite sure it's a french hunting sword/dagger.

Kind regards

My pleasure Francantolin! Im glad I could add some helpful info, and thanks for sharing this sword here!

[Sajen]

Here was shown a a somewhat similar sword before: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24743

[AHorsa]

Hi there

this is a German "Jagdplaute" from the 1st half of the 18th century. The guard is typical for this type of sword and the decorated hilt is also not unusual. Here is another example

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...a-a76000b77e07

[francantolin]

Thank's a lot for take out this old post !
Kind regards

[Akanthus]

Originally Posted by francantolin

Thank's a lot for take out this old post !
Kind regards

Here some further examples from the second,third and last quarter of the 18th.century from Germany.I have taken them from the great book of Herbert Westphal , " Hirschfänger ,Zur historischen Entwicklung jagdlicher Seitenwaffen "
Mr. Westphal mentioned,that the brown marbled hilts were a specialized Solingen work.So they have produced these kind of hilts over a long time.It seems that they etched and painted the asiatic looking decorations.
Krünitz : " Das Färben und Beizen der Knochen und des Elfenbeins "

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually this style of engraved motif is a theme termed 'Caissignard' and seems to have been prevalent in Nantes, France in the mid to latter 18th c.

This is an interesting observation. When I was researching my Cassaignard sword, most examples with his name feature the same three icons; the 'Sword arm from the cloud', 'Man in the sun' and 'Man in the moon'. I took this to indicate that he used pre-decorated blades imported from Solingen based supplier rather than the style originating from him or Nantes.



I’ve seen these motifs, plus the 'Turks head', the 'Charging Hussar' and more, in various styles on swords from multiple countries. I was under the impression that these were a general fashion statement rather than specific to a region. The physical evidence also suggests that Solingen blade makers were happy to supply blades that were fully decorated with whatever markings the customer wanted, including the clients' name (where the client could be a cutler such as Cassaignard, or a wholesaler like S&K or J J Runkel).

The most compelling evidence for this are the blades imported by J J Runkel into the United Kingdom circa 1790 - 1808. I have four swords by different cutlers that use a Runkel-supplied blade, and each has the same generic decoration. All carry the GR cypher and the Royal Coat of Arms which must have been applied at the time the rest of the decorations were, meaning it happened prior to import.



Coming back to the ‘Turks head,’ these and other cabalistic iconography (including a charging Hussar) also feature on the British 1788 Light cavalry trooper sabres that were made in Solingen and imported by J J Runkel at the end of the 18th Century:



This French (possibly Dutch) Côtes de Melon style light cavalry officers' sabre also has a blade with a 'Turks head', yet was made in Solingen as evidenced by the 'Rose' on the spine.