An uncommon polearm for comments

[fernando]

One of those weapons developed from ancient rural implements as, after all, came the most (or the total ?) of them from.
Perhaps this variant is only found in Portugal, as i don't see them exhibited out there, nor in publications other than Portuguese.
Its name in english speaking typology would be 'war scythe', but we here call this a 'war sickle' (Foice de guerra). Another name would be 'Falcão' (hawk) but i lack certainty.
The (much) later haft is too slim to fit properly into its socket and langets; a more sturdy one must be commissioned one of these days.
The blade age is my drama. In fact, attending to the period when these things saw action, we should be speaking about XVI-XVII centuries; considering this one is authentic, of course. Sharpened in the total length of its convex side and almost half of its straight side.
Have you guys already seen one of these things ?
I am uploading some Portuguese publications where similar pieces are shown, just in case this one of mine might appear fictional to one's eyes...


.

[Ian]

Hi Fernando,

Would this style of polearm not fall into the category of a glaive?

Ian.

[Madnumforce]

Is this absolutely sure this is actually a polearm, and not an agricultural tool some antique dealers managed to make a huge margin on? Cause it strongly reminds me of tools know in French under various names: coupe-marc, hache de chais, etc, that were used to cut and slice the cake in the vat of press. Of course, they are often sold, and even displayed in museums, as polearms. The difference is factor 5-15 on the price, and that's why it's still a lucrative business, combined with ignorance. Another kind of tool knows the same fate, and they're called in France taille-pré, coupe-pré, etc, that were used to cut gutters in meadows to drain them, or to create channels in which the rainwater would run and optimize irrigation (especially for vine and where the soil was poor). Coupe-marc are usually more nicely made than taille-prés, and for example it's a bit unlikely to find a closed socket on a taille-pré, but it's more common on coupe-marcs.

Since in Portugal there is also a long lived tradition of wine making and oil making, it wouldn't be surprising similar tool exist, and the same monkey business about them.

As illustration, a few pictures of various French coupe-marcs et taille-prés.

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Nando and welcome back from America (?)
My knowledge on polearms is limited to only the few i have seen in manuscripts. But.. whenever i find some usefull illustrations i save it.
So hereby a history of polearms.

[Victrix]

Many thanks to Fernando for raising an important point about polearms and their similarity with farm tools which is probably not coincidental. In medieval times there were many peasant rebellions and at other times peasants were often used to serve as infantry. They would then presumably use what was at hand, from which polearms developed. Madnumforce points out the racket in which farm tools on a stick are sold very profitably as antique arms, something which every arms collector should beware of. The distinction between farm tools and arms on sticks can sometimes be blurred and they may at times have been used for both purposes. I would suggest that polearms may be recognized by decorative elements that show intention for use in rituals, military/armoury marks, ruler coat of arms, etc. Even where there are no decorative elements, as in Fernando’s example above, the presence of langets suggests military use.

[CSinTX]

Originally Posted by Victrix

as in Fernando’s example above, the presence of langets suggests military use.

My thoughts as well. The langets on Fernandos piece are quite substantial. If original I would conclude weapon. If any signs of being added, I would conclude tool.

[fernando]

A pure (still used) tool like a Coupe-Marc, as eventually discussed HERE is not the issue in this case. Eventually when i bought my French coupe-marc example i had at the time enquired about such things with a local fellow collector and farmer, and in Portugal tools used for such purpose are not of a specific typology, as they use any 'practical' tool they have at hand.
It is visible that the langets in this present example are not an addition; they are so original as those shown in the uploaded pictures of three other examples exhibited in museums and having previously belonged to nobility collectors, in which we can rely on the weapon purpose plausibility.

.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Fernando,

Would this style of polearm not fall into the category of a glaive?

Ian.

Well Ian, i tried to 'accomodate' this specimen in such typology, but i hesitated. For a start, there is no actual Portuguese translation for glaive; so i quit the glaive generic category and stood with the specific war sickle name.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Hi Nando and welcome back from America (?)
My knowledge on polearms is limited to only the few i have seen in manuscripts. But.. whenever i find some usefull illustrations i save it.
So hereby a history of polearms.

Thank you for the welcome and for the illustration Marcus. I could swear i have one of these, somewhere among my micro library .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

...In medieval times there were many peasant rebellions and at other times peasants were often used to serve as infantry. They would then presumably use what was at hand, from which polearms developed...

I would say not only 'free lancers' resourcing rural tools to cause turbulence among defenseless villages but also traditional agricultors becoming part time 'regulars', when drafted by their land lords to form their infantry battle force (pawns) ...as it comes in the books.


.

[kronckew]

The languettes weaponise this item whether added during initial construction or after... Just like a peasant levee having a spike and rear hook and a long pole added to his bill as he prepared for deployment.

Another copy of the illustration that does not have the spot covering the 'H' in the Couteau de Breche. (french - Breaching Knife) progression. I'd guess that corresponds to 'glaive'.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... The languettes weaponise this item whether added during initial construction or after...

Well Wayne, that is some approach; whether being borne with langets, or having them added later; and whether such langets were added to weaponise the item for real period action or recently for fantasy purposes ... like defrauding an unexperienced client. I guess each of the three versions has a distinct value, price and collecting wise.

Originally Posted by kronckew

Another copy of the illustration that does not have the spot covering the 'H' in the Couteau de Breche. (french - Breaching Knife) progression. I'd guess that corresponds to 'glaive'.

Breaching knives are not so wide bladed, in order to penetrate into siege wall breaches. Glaives are Fauchards in your spotless drawing.
I still don't find an 'universal' name for this Portuguese thing .

[fernando]

Now with a more appropriate pole, in oak wood, sightly faceted, well embedded in the socket; langets also embedded but now secured with real old handmade nails.


.

[Will M]

Knowing blacksmith techniques and identifying aged pieces is key.
Actually quite difficult to make additions using modern welding without seeing signs of being tinkered with.
Very nice job of adding the shaft.

[fernando]

Thank you for the kind words, Will .

[Helleri]

Not to stir the pot. But the presence of langets doesn't necessarily indicate that the implement is weaponized. Though not the most common of features langets do appear on plenty of tool use only implements. Both historically and modernly.


The good news is that when they are present on pure tools. it's usually easy to distinguish. Langets for tools are often not an integral part of the piece. Take for example this old shingle axe.


(Pictures 1 & 2).


Note that these langets are inserted as tines. Hammers of various types which have langets usually do this. There is often an additional recess in the eye of the hammer to allow for it, and the mouth of the eye is recessed as well so they sit relatively flush.


I've owned a few tools (none presently in my tool collection) that had langets which were fitted in this manner. Modernly this is still done by some brands though by different technique. As shown below.

(Picture 3).

Sometimes in both antiquity and modernity there are tools with langets which are integral, such as this framing hammer.

(Picture 4).

In general langets are more common on weapons than tools I'd say. But this doesn't preclude pure tools from having them and that fact is worth driving home.


Even when langets are present as integral to the piece (as shown above in the very last image). They are almost invariably present on the axis of movement with the tool. Because tools are not typically used defensively.


Whereas with weapons we often see them either on that same axis as with tools or on the flat side. Because a weapon has more axis of movement in use. It doesn't need to just protect the shaft from a missed blow. It can be used to bat away other weapons with side to side motions without changing the offensive orientation of the weapon (necessitating langets on the side to protect the shaft).


Where the langets are located can tell one a lot about how it was used. Another thing to consider is that langets on pure tools tend to be more diminutive. Just long enough and wide enough to protect from the ill effects of a mis-strike or skipping.


Another thing about langets for pure tools is that they are very rarely recessed into the wood. Manufacturers tend to want to do as little removal of wood as possible. So langets often sit on top of the wood and have only as much fastening as is absolutely necessary.


So while it's probably not a good general rule to say that langets = war implement and no langets = tool implement (and I realize no one is saying that explicitly. Just warning against that potential analytical trap). It's still fair to say that it's more common on weapons. It's also fairly easy to distinguish between tool and weapon langets. Because their different purposes are reflected in how they are manifested on the piece.



[Edit: I'd like to add that the piece for discussion here appears to me to be more on the weapon side of things. The langets are long, fairly wide, and recessed.

But more than that the blade shape makes me think weapon. Notice the slight drop point on the spine from midway down to the tip. This brings the tip into alignment with the center-line of the shaft. Meaning this tip was meant to do at least some amount of thrusting. In addition to the what was likely the primary mode of use (cutting/hacking).

Also the blade itself appears to have to have a tapered-concave cross-section, with distal tapering along the spine? So it was made to be rigid on the spin, but also to be made very sharp. While still remaining light.

This doesn't seem all that tool-like. As a swung tool will rely partially on some measure of heft to do the work and bulk to resist damage. Dulling isn't as much of a problem given one has the luxury of stopping to sharpen an edge. Whereas on the battle field you want something to be as sharp as possible and when it dulls still be thin enough to have what sharpness remains carry it through the cut (because you can't just stop any time you like to hone the edge).

A weapon also can't be too heavy or a person won't be able to wield it for long. Unlike with a tool where again one has the luxury oif being able to take breaks. In battle you have to be able to wield a weapon for potentially much long stretches of time without rest.

All-in-all it definitely has more of a weapon feel to me.]

.

[fernando]

Much obliged for the comprehensive input, Helleri .

[Helleri]

Thought this would be an interesting addition to this line of sub-topic. I found these yesterday in some stuff my boss has while helping him sort/organize his lean-to storage

(Pictures 1 & 2)

This pair of loppers has langets that might be at first confusing as to their function. After all shears are not excepted to receive blows. At most they would lightly abrade small branches. And they definitely would receive a blow to the inside of the handles. It's a good example of non-swung-tool langets and having langets for another/additional reason.

Notice they are along the axis on which the shafts would be under fairly extreme pressure when in use. No doubt this is to reinforce the shafts against snapping where they are most prone to do so.

Applying this thinking forward to weapons, how many times can one reasonably swing a long shafted, heavy ended weapon, even successfully landing blows, before it's wooden shaft cracks or snaps from repetitive stress?

It's something I had not considered before. But langets on weapons may very well be partly about reinforcing the strength of the shaft of a weapon against the stresses put on it (in addition to protecting it from blows).

Construction wise it should also be noted that while these might appear integral to the piece, they are not. They are pinned at the top by those bolsters. There is a slot cut into the wood, that the tang of looper's blades plunge down into. Similar to my own pair of loppers below.

(Pictures 3 & 4)

I hope this isn't too... Off into the weeds for most people's tastes. The tool/weapon association is very close. I'd be as bold as to say that most weapons are, at least in their most primitive forms, derived from tools (I consider hunting weapons to be tools as well). And historically a lot of tools would have doubled as makeshift weapons. So there does come a point where it's hard to talk about weapons or certain aspects thereof without discussing the connection between tools and weapons. Also the study of one can tell a person a lot about the other. As they use many of the same techniques and materials in construction,

.

[kronckew]

One difference between English/American boarding axes and the French ones is the alignment of the languets, French ones have them fore and aft, US/UK ones port and starboard.

French naval tactics had them shoot for the rigging to disable the enemy, they expected the same in return, so their axes were designed mostly to damage control, removing broken rigging and spars, only secondarily as weapons.

English, US tactics were to go for the throat by smashing through the hull, disabling the guns and killing the crews, their ones were used for boarding and breaching barriers with hostiles behind, so had the languetes on the sides.

This carried over into their fire axes too.

Guess which is which

[Helleri]

It's really interesting how a small change shows a fairly substantial difference in primary function. Also I'd suspect (from how you describe their use) that the top image is the English/American boarding axe. Especially since there are plain and bold English lettered marks on it. Whereas the lower on has smaller marks in two fonts, one of which seems to be cursive (just feels more... french).

[fernando]

Wayne, are you concluding such perspective by your own reasoning or is this a registered evidence ?. I confess i don't catch some of your explanation (language issues).
I see langets placed along the blade sides and other on their front and back. It came to my mind that these were placed either in order to resist opponents weapon strikes or to prevent the haft to break itself with the (percussion) impact of several blows struck by their own user. Although the major number of langets are placed alongside the blade faces, some exceptions may be noticed; and i don't manage to follow a determined logic.
And by the way, isn't your PARKER example a fireman's axe ?

.

[kronckew]

fore and aft= front and back
port=left side, starboard= right side.

Boarding axes have been discussed on the forum before.

Both axes are fire axes, as I mentioned at the end of my post. Both descended from boarding axes.

The english and French kept their languettes on the same side as their boarding axes had once had, despite any earlier military connotations or then current fire service use..

The penchant for targeting each nations enemy ships in the hull or the rigging is/was well known, as was the english habit of boarding to capture and force surrender, as opposed to the stand-off, disable and board after surrender used by the French.

The English axes thus had side languettes as they were more likely to be used in combat, while the french ones had the front/rear ones as they were more likely to be used to clear wreckage of broken spars, lines, timbers, etc. o protect the haft from overstriking.

Just more ammo for what you said too.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

fore and aft= front and back; port=left side, starboard= right side...

Those ... i know what they mean. . ... Although we here use a different terminolgy .
On the other hand, i wouldn't know that the langets position criterion was exclusive from this or that other country. So my axe (and its twin brother that i shared) would be the English type, so to say. Alright then.


.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by fernando

Those ... i know what they mean. . ... Although we here use a different terminolgy .
On the other hand, i wouldn't know that the langets position criterion was exclusive from this or that other country. So my axe (and its twin brother that i shared) would be the English type, so to say. Alright then.


.

It's quite possible. And other countries may have varied. I could see a scenario where a pole arm can over-strike someone in armour and thus need fore/aft languettes to reinforce the haft, especially in a chopping weapon. I seem to recall seeing pole arms with languettes on 4 sides! Covering all the bases in American baseball idiom.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... I seem to recall seeing pole arms with languettes on 4 sides! Covering all the bases in American baseball idiom.

And you recall correctly. Protecting all the (four) sides, as in combat formation idiom.