Sikin Panjang - a translation request

Gustav · 1st August 2018, 01:59 PM

Dear All,

if possible I would like to ask some knowledgeable person to translate the cartouche on this one, please.

And a question - the blade of this specimen is becoming slightly broader towards the tip, for about 3,5 mm. I suppose, it isn't much reshaped or resharpened. Have somebody of you noticed something similar on your Sikin?

Many Pamor layers on this one.

ariel · 1st August 2018, 06:00 PM

Verrrrry!!! nice.

Gustav · 2nd August 2018, 08:42 AM

Ariel, thank you very much!

The cartouche once more, in correct orientation.

Ian · 3rd August 2018, 02:51 AM

Gustav:

Lovely sikin! The folding of the blade is well shown and I like the pattern. As far as widening of the blade towards the tip, I have not seen this before. In my experience, the edge and spine are remarkably parallel until the edge curves to the tip. Others with more experience may have seen a similar blade.

Ian.

kai · 4th August 2018, 02:51 AM

Hello Gustav,

Quote:

if possible I would like to ask some knowledgeable person to translate the cartouche on this one, please.

The script is unusually long!

I also can't remember having seen these lines to be written on...

Quote:

the blade of this specimen is becoming slightly broader towards the tip, for about 3,5 mm. I suppose, it isn't much reshaped or resharpened. Have somebody of you noticed something similar on your Sikin?

I've seen this with some sekin. This blade is fairly broad to begin with...

I'd need to closely study the blade to possibly narrow down on any possible reason.

Quote:

Many Pamor layers on this one.

Typical neat Aceh craftsmanship.

A very nice, complete example with extensively decorated scabbard and gold crowns/inlays, congrats!

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 4th August 2018, 07:56 AM

Hello Gustav,

very nice sikin panjang!

Now I know who bid me out by the auction, it's much nicer as seen on the poor auction picture!
Hopefully someone will be able to translate the script!

Regards,
Detlef

Gustav · 4th August 2018, 11:56 AM

Ian, Kai, Detlef - thank you very much!

Yes, I had luck this time - blade came out very well, without deep scars (there were two bigger rusted areas where you could expect everything, one on each side). Three members of the upper crown are a bit battered, but there still is the typical red staining.

The blade is 53,2 cm long, 3,7cm broad at handle, 4 cm before it curves to tip. You cannot see it well in pictures (it is almost impossible to take adequate pictures of a longer blade without professional equipment), but in hand I immediately noticed the broadening. The blade looks less stiff.

Actually the broadening towards the tip occurs quite naturally forging out the blade. I also think to have noticed this feature in some pictures of other SP now, but that's mostly a guess work. I suppose, the state of my blade is quite close to original without much reshaping - Kuro is well defined, with clear, crisp borders.

Regarding Pamor, at the moment it seems to me there could be a deliberate difference between common and status SP in number of layers. A good comparison are the blades of ex-Gavin and ex-P.Dekker (and mine).

http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s174_full.html

http://www.mandarinmansion.com/very-...e-tiered-crown

ariel · 4th August 2018, 01:37 PM

Enlighten me: AFAIK, Indonesian Pamor is just a variety of laminated materiel, not different in principle from a mechanical damascus. However, bright streaks of pamor are formed by nickel, whereas outside of Indonesia the pattern was formed by combining low,- and high-carbon steels.

I have a visual impression of the latter, rather than former.

Battara · 4th August 2018, 04:41 PM

What I love about this:

1. the tight laminations in the blade

2. the enamel is almost complete

3. the scabbard is present and complete

asomotif · 4th August 2018, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

What I love about this:

1. the tight laminations in the blade

2. the enamel is almost complete

3. the scabbard is present and complete

Same for me. splendid piece.

As for the widening blade.
Same as Kai, I would have to study the blade for a long time to get a grip on this unusual widening pattern.
I will be happy to make some space in my home to study it

Please check other threads about translation to see who was assisting there. some PM may help

Wonderful piece, once more

kai · 4th August 2018, 09:54 PM

Email sent already...

kai · 4th August 2018, 10:01 PM

Hello Ariel,

Quote:

Enlighten me: AFAIK, Indonesian Pamor is just a variety of laminated materiel, not different in principle from a mechanical damascus. However, bright streaks of pamor are formed by nickel, whereas outside of Indonesia the pattern was formed by combining low,- and high-carbon steels.

Any laminated construction could be legitimately referred to as pamor in Indonesia: It doesn't have to exhibit strong contrast nor is it limited to nickel - iron alloys of different origins tend to be different enough to result in some contrast (the cause could be nickel, carbon, phosphorous, etc. or any number of combinations...).

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 5th August 2018, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

And a question - the blade of this specimen is becoming slightly broader towards the tip, for about 3,5 mm. I suppose, it isn't much reshaped or resharpened. Have somebody of you noticed something similar on your Sikin?

I've just controlled the two Sikins in my collection, one shows the same feature, at the base it's 38 mm broad, the tip is nearly 40 mm.

Regards,
Detlef

Gustav · 5th August 2018, 01:21 PM

Willem, thank you!

Detlef, thank you very much for checking your Sikin Panjang!
Very close indeed.

Gustav · 5th August 2018, 02:57 PM

Better pictures of the inscription:

Jentayu · 5th August 2018, 03:29 PM

Hi Guztav,

While some of the words are quite clear to read, others are hard to decipher. Nevertheless, below are the translation of what was written on your sikin sheath. Hope this helps.

"Ini lah peninggalan (?) Teuku Kalit Mat Said dan yang empunya sikin panjang ini ....dan pada..."

"This is heirloom? of Teuku Kalit (or probably kaluet a province in Aceh?) Mat Said and whom this sikin panjang belongs to ....and on ...(the rest I cant decipher)"

CharlesS · 5th August 2018, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

What I love about this:

1. the tight laminations in the blade

2. the enamel is almost complete

3. the scabbard is present and complete

Exactly as Battara has said! This is one of the most lovely sikins I have seen in some time. Congrats!

Gustav · 5th August 2018, 05:22 PM

Jentayu, thank you very much for translation, it's a great help!

A question - could Teuku Kalit be a title, the Dutch spelling being (Teuku) Kali?

"For the administration of justice the Uleebalang avails himself of the sevices of Kali (kadhi - a judge in Islamic law), whom he himself nominates." (Snouck Hurgronje, "The Achechnese")

Like there was Panglima of a Sagi (confederation of districts), a nominal chief of Uleebalangs of these districts, there was also a Kali, which was then the chief Kali of a Sagi. His title was Kali Rabon Jale and he was appointed directly by Sultan.

Above the Kali of Uleebalalang and Kali of Panglima Sagi there was a supreme hereditary judge with a title of Kali Malikon Ade. He initially possibly could apply Hukom as well as Adat law and ideally would be a president of a royal court of justice.

It seems this system certainly wasn't working anymore in 19th cent. (or even earlier) because of great independency of (three) Sagi's and Uleebalangs.

So Kali Malikon Ade was later in fact just a title, which indicated the origin of the position, "Judge of the righteous King"; a master of court ceremonies, to whom a fixed portion of harbour dues was assigned. He became what was called Uleebalang Poteu (Uleebalang of our Lord), equal in rank to the almost independent provincial chiefs, but without territory. The official title of Teuku which he bore points to the complete secularisation of his office.

Finally one of the holders of the title used a weakness of a Panglima Meuseugit Raya (the head of around 24 Kampongs on either side of Aceh river in neighbourhood of the court and principal mosque) and succeeded in gaining control of over half of latter's jurisdiction. Sicnce then Teuku Kali was a chief (Uleebalang) of small (12 Kampongs) but important territory and at the same time, as court dignitary, not without influence in the choice of a successor to the throne.

.................................................. ..............

Charles, thank you very much!

1st August 2018, 01:59 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	Sikin Panjang - a translation request Dear All, if possible I would like to ask some knowledgeable person to translate the cartouche on this one, please. And a question - the blade of this specimen is becoming slightly broader towards the tip, for about 3,5 mm. I suppose, it isn't much reshaped or resharpened. Have somebody of you noticed something similar on your Sikin? Many Pamor layers on this one. Attached Images

2nd August 2018, 08:42 AM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	Ariel, thank you very much! The cartouche once more, in correct orientation. Attached Images

5th August 2018, 02:57 PM	#15
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	Better pictures of the inscription: Attached Images

5th August 2018, 05:22 PM	#18
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	Jentayu, thank you very much for translation, it's a great help! A question - could Teuku Kalit be a title, the Dutch spelling being (Teuku) Kali? "For the administration of justice the Uleebalang avails himself of the sevices of Kali (kadhi - a judge in Islamic law), whom he himself nominates." (Snouck Hurgronje, "The Achechnese") Like there was Panglima of a Sagi (confederation of districts), a nominal chief of Uleebalangs of these districts, there was also a Kali, which was then the chief Kali of a Sagi. His title was Kali Rabon Jale and he was appointed directly by Sultan. Above the Kali of Uleebalalang and Kali of Panglima Sagi there was a supreme hereditary judge with a title of Kali Malikon Ade. He initially possibly could apply Hukom as well as Adat law and ideally would be a president of a royal court of justice. It seems this system certainly wasn't working anymore in 19th cent. (or even earlier) because of great independency of (three) Sagi's and Uleebalangs. So Kali Malikon Ade was later in fact just a title, which indicated the origin of the position, "Judge of the righteous King"; a master of court ceremonies, to whom a fixed portion of harbour dues was assigned. He became what was called Uleebalang Poteu (Uleebalang of our Lord), equal in rank to the almost independent provincial chiefs, but without territory. The official title of Teuku which he bore points to the complete secularisation of his office. Finally one of the holders of the title used a weakness of a Panglima Meuseugit Raya (the head of around 24 Kampongs on either side of Aceh river in neighbourhood of the court and principal mosque) and succeeded in gaining control of over half of latter's jurisdiction. Sicnce then Teuku Kali was a chief (Uleebalang) of small (12 Kampongs) but important territory and at the same time, as court dignitary, not without influence in the choice of a successor to the throne. .................................................. .............. Charles, thank you very much! Attached Images

1st August 2018, 06:00 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Verrrrry!!! nice.

3rd August 2018, 02:51 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Gustav: Lovely sikin! The folding of the blade is well shown and I like the pattern. As far as widening of the blade towards the tip, I have not seen this before. In my experience, the edge and spine are remarkably parallel until the edge curves to the tip. Others with more experience may have seen a similar blade. Ian.

4th August 2018, 07:56 AM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,769	Hello Gustav, very nice sikin panjang! Now I know who bid me out by the auction, it's much nicer as seen on the poor auction picture! Hopefully someone will be able to translate the script! Regards, Detlef

4th August 2018, 11:56 AM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	Ian, Kai, Detlef - thank you very much! Yes, I had luck this time - blade came out very well, without deep scars (there were two bigger rusted areas where you could expect everything, one on each side). Three members of the upper crown are a bit battered, but there still is the typical red staining. The blade is 53,2 cm long, 3,7cm broad at handle, 4 cm before it curves to tip. You cannot see it well in pictures (it is almost impossible to take adequate pictures of a longer blade without professional equipment), but in hand I immediately noticed the broadening. The blade looks less stiff. Actually the broadening towards the tip occurs quite naturally forging out the blade. I also think to have noticed this feature in some pictures of other SP now, but that's mostly a guess work. I suppose, the state of my blade is quite close to original without much reshaping - Kuro is well defined, with clear, crisp borders. Regarding Pamor, at the moment it seems to me there could be a deliberate difference between common and status SP in number of layers. A good comparison are the blades of ex-Gavin and ex-P.Dekker (and mine). http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s174_full.html http://www.mandarinmansion.com/very-...e-tiered-crown

4th August 2018, 01:37 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Enlighten me: AFAIK, Indonesian Pamor is just a variety of laminated materiel, not different in principle from a mechanical damascus. However, bright streaks of pamor are formed by nickel, whereas outside of Indonesia the pattern was formed by combining low,- and high-carbon steels. I have a visual impression of the latter, rather than former.

4th August 2018, 04:41 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	What I love about this: 1. the tight laminations in the blade 2. the enamel is almost complete 3. the scabbard is present and complete

4th August 2018, 09:54 PM	#11
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Email sent already...

5th August 2018, 01:21 PM	#14
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	Willem, thank you! Detlef, thank you very much for checking your Sikin Panjang! Very close indeed.

5th August 2018, 03:29 PM	#16
Jentayu Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 61	Hi Guztav, While some of the words are quite clear to read, others are hard to decipher. Nevertheless, below are the translation of what was written on your sikin sheath. Hope this helps. "Ini lah peninggalan (?) Teuku Kalit Mat Said dan yang empunya sikin panjang ini ....dan pada..." "This is heirloom? of Teuku Kalit (or probably kaluet a province in Aceh?) Mat Said and whom this sikin panjang belongs to ....and on ...(the rest I cant decipher)"