shamshir on ebay

Valjhun · 3rd April 2006, 08:35 AM

7402497942

Horrible... I would guess that it is a rather modern india production. Any thoughs?

Yannis · 3rd April 2006, 08:48 AM

No. IMO the sword is antique. Ottoman empire. The scabbard is newer and Indian.

Valjhun · 3rd April 2006, 09:09 AM

Ok, but, that gilding looks new to me also... Has it been regilded?

Ian · 3rd April 2006, 09:47 AM

Looks like a very handsome old sword. I particularly like the blade -- plain but efficient. The silver wash on hilt and scabbard metals shows some wear consistent with the age of the sword.

Did you notice the winning bidder? Artzi generally knows what he is doing.

Ian.

wolviex · 3rd April 2006, 10:18 AM

I'm not the expert but seeing and handling some of these swords I'm going to second Yannis and Ian opinions. Looks very fine. And I'm not telling this because of oriental-arms

M.carter · 3rd April 2006, 01:58 PM

I second Yannis on his thoughts, old, authentic, but a new indian scabbard

Jim McDougall · 3rd April 2006, 04:30 PM

I completely agree, this appears to be an early Ottoman example that has been remounted, and clearly a 'sleeper'! As Ian notes, Artzi knows EXACTLY what he is doing, and he's one of the best!!! It is not at all unusual for such blades, often heirloom even if not marked, to be remounted. Indian purveyors often remounted older blades along with the many swords they supplied to Arabian buyers in the ongoing trade there, or this may have been as noted, remounted by an owner of a heirloom blade.

What I find distinctly interesting is the 'star of Solomon' on the chowk on one side. I recall years ago when a worn Bedouin sabre on ebay was claimed to be an ancient Jewish sword because of the six point star on the blade! As is now well known, the symbol does occur on Islamic swords, although not particularly often.

I am inclined to think that the hilt components and possibly the scabbard furniture may be original and refurbished as well. Although 'restored' in degree, the sword has integrity! I like that

All the best,
Jim

Valjhun · 3rd April 2006, 05:33 PM

Well I really don't like thatone. I guess that it just isn't of my taste. I haven't noticed thou that it was bought by Mr. Artzi. He one of the best and surely he knows what he is doing. You are completely right.

6617444195 - I really like thatone, but again, Mr. Arzi shows no mercy

ariel · 3rd April 2006, 05:43 PM

Strictly speaking, it is not shamshir but Kilij.
It has a yelman, and it is not very curved.
Typical Ottoman sword, old and in a relatively good shape for a 200-300 year old blade. I have seen previews of Sharon Stone in "Fatal Attraction II" and this sword looks fresh and pristine in comparison.
The scabbard is oldish, but obviously a replacement. I was intrigued by the drag: don't you think it has some Afghani flavour?

Jim McDougall · 3rd April 2006, 06:03 PM

Hi Ariel,
Very astutely observed!! on both the sword and the movie!!

The sabre does distinctly have a yelman (I didnt notice) and Ms. Stone does not

Well observed on the chape as well, perhaps a Northern India furbisher, possibly port regions now Pakistan?

All best,
Jim

ariel · 4th April 2006, 04:11 AM

I am getting old: the correct title of the flick where Ms. Stone shows her... yelman?.. is "Basic Instinct"

"Fatal Attraction" is a totally different psychoporn, and the only common denominator is Michael Douglas proving to us that having an affair with a long-legged blonde may be dangerous to your health.

M.carter · 4th April 2006, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I completely agree, this appears to be an early Ottoman example that has been remounted, and clearly a 'sleeper'! As Ian notes, Artzi knows EXACTLY what he is doing, and he's one of the best!!! It is not at all unusual for such blades, often heirloom even if not marked, to be remounted. Indian purveyors often remounted older blades along with the many swords they supplied to Arabian buyers in the ongoing trade there, or this may have been as noted, remounted by an owner of a heirloom blade.

What I find distinctly interesting is the 'star of Solomon' on the chowk on one side. I recall years ago when a worn Bedouin sabre on ebay was claimed to be an ancient Jewish sword because of the six point star on the blade! As is now well known, the symbol does occur on Islamic swords, although not particularly often.

I am inclined to think that the hilt components and possibly the scabbard furniture may be original and refurbished as well. Although 'restored' in degree, the sword has integrity! I like that

All the best,
Jim

One question Jim, you say that there was a market for such blades in Arabia? Ive never seen a single saif with a short blade like this, with a deep yelmen(that doesnt mean that they're are not there

), im just asking if you have pics of any.

Most have either Persian curvy blades, or local blades with slight curves, or fully straight.

Jim McDougall · 5th April 2006, 05:56 AM

Hi Mike,
My error! My comments were made prior to uh, Sharon Stone and the yelman which I did not notice!!

oops!
You are correct, the kilij type blades were not particularly favored by the Arabs, and I agree, I have not seen such blades on any Arab saif. I was thinking of the shamshir blades.
I'm with Ariel...maybe we are getting old...er !!

All the best,
Jim

M.carter · 5th April 2006, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Mike,
My error! My comments were made prior to uh, Sharon Stone and the yelman which I did not notice!!

oops!
You are correct, the kilij type blades were not particularly favored by the Arabs, and I agree, I have not seen such blades on any Arab saif. I was thinking of the shamshir blades.
I'm with Ariel...maybe we are getting old...er !!

All the best,
Jim

thanks a bunch Jim

3rd April 2006, 08:35 AM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	shamshir on ebay 7402497942 Horrible... I would guess that it is a rather modern india production. Any thoughs?

3rd April 2006, 08:48 AM	#2
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	No. IMO the sword is antique. Ottoman empire. The scabbard is newer and Indian.

3rd April 2006, 09:09 AM	#3
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Ok, but, that gilding looks new to me also... Has it been regilded?

3rd April 2006, 09:47 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Looks like a very handsome old sword. I particularly like the blade -- plain but efficient. The silver wash on hilt and scabbard metals shows some wear consistent with the age of the sword. Did you notice the winning bidder? Artzi generally knows what he is doing. Ian.

3rd April 2006, 10:18 AM	#5
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	I'm not the expert but seeing and handling some of these swords I'm going to second Yannis and Ian opinions. Looks very fine. And I'm not telling this because of oriental-arms

3rd April 2006, 01:58 PM	#6
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	I second Yannis on his thoughts, old, authentic, but a new indian scabbard

3rd April 2006, 04:30 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	I completely agree, this appears to be an early Ottoman example that has been remounted, and clearly a 'sleeper'! As Ian notes, Artzi knows EXACTLY what he is doing, and he's one of the best!!! It is not at all unusual for such blades, often heirloom even if not marked, to be remounted. Indian purveyors often remounted older blades along with the many swords they supplied to Arabian buyers in the ongoing trade there, or this may have been as noted, remounted by an owner of a heirloom blade. What I find distinctly interesting is the 'star of Solomon' on the chowk on one side. I recall years ago when a worn Bedouin sabre on ebay was claimed to be an ancient Jewish sword because of the six point star on the blade! As is now well known, the symbol does occur on Islamic swords, although not particularly often. I am inclined to think that the hilt components and possibly the scabbard furniture may be original and refurbished as well. Although 'restored' in degree, the sword has integrity! I like that All the best, Jim

3rd April 2006, 05:33 PM	#8
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well I really don't like thatone. I guess that it just isn't of my taste. I haven't noticed thou that it was bought by Mr. Artzi. He one of the best and surely he knows what he is doing. You are completely right. 6617444195 - I really like thatone, but again, Mr. Arzi shows no mercy

3rd April 2006, 05:43 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Strictly speaking, it is not shamshir but Kilij. It has a yelman, and it is not very curved. Typical Ottoman sword, old and in a relatively good shape for a 200-300 year old blade. I have seen previews of Sharon Stone in "Fatal Attraction II" and this sword looks fresh and pristine in comparison. The scabbard is oldish, but obviously a replacement. I was intrigued by the drag: don't you think it has some Afghani flavour?

3rd April 2006, 06:03 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	Hi Ariel, Very astutely observed!! on both the sword and the movie!! The sabre does distinctly have a yelman (I didnt notice) and Ms. Stone does not Well observed on the chape as well, perhaps a Northern India furbisher, possibly port regions now Pakistan? All best, Jim

4th April 2006, 04:11 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am getting old: the correct title of the flick where Ms. Stone shows her... yelman?.. is "Basic Instinct" "Fatal Attraction" is a totally different psychoporn, and the only common denominator is Michael Douglas proving to us that having an affair with a long-legged blonde may be dangerous to your health.

5th April 2006, 05:56 AM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	Hi Mike, My error! My comments were made prior to uh, Sharon Stone and the yelman which I did not notice!! oops! You are correct, the kilij type blades were not particularly favored by the Arabs, and I agree, I have not seen such blades on any Arab saif. I was thinking of the shamshir blades. I'm with Ariel...maybe we are getting old...er !! All the best, Jim