Odd piece-what is it?

RSWORD · 2nd April 2006, 03:37 AM

I have picked up a couple of unusual pieces that I have no clue as to what they are and would like some help from the broad range of knowledge this forum consists of. I don't know what to call this first odd piece. Is it a bayonet? Is it affixed to a pole for fighting? For gardening? It does have a strong ethnographic feel to it. The "blade" is triangular and has some simple line decorations. They look familiar to me but I am unable to put my finger on it. There is a cross bar near the blade and then at the end of the horizontal bars are holes. These horizontal bars end in a knob like shape. The angle of the holes are peculiar to me and I just can't picture how it would be mounted up. The "blade" is quite sharp. So, any thoughts on this piece?

Rick · 2nd April 2006, 03:42 AM

Certainly looks like a crude katar .
Is it of a size to be so ?
The eyes could be for binding it to the forearm with a cord .

Henk · 2nd April 2006, 07:57 AM

Looks like a katar to me as well. Maybe the experts on katar can tell us more.

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd April 2006, 09:49 AM

I doubt that you will find many of these, but you can see one in Tirri’s book ‘Islamic Weapons’ page 297, figure 218 (see below).

Here is what he writes about it. “Jamadhar Nimcha is a short bladed Jamadhar (Katar). The short, three-to six-inch blade is usually proportionally wider.”

The fact that he shows it together with a katar from Sind, does not mean that they are both from Sind. Not all smiths were weapon smiths, but they could still make weapons.

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd April 2006, 10:46 AM

I have a picture in one of my books of a katar, at least as curious as the one shown. It is in P. Holstein’s book ‘Contribution a l’etude des Armes Orientales, vol. I. Plate XIII, no 19.

Besides the way it looks, there is another strange thing about it. In the text to the figures it says, “Garsoe-katar (Bhoudj, Catch). Collection Henri Moser, actuellement au muse de Berne”. I have seen the Moser collection several times, but never seen the katar, so I contacted the curator of the department and asked about the katar, but he denied that a katar looking like that was in the Moser collection. So it seems as if it either disappeared shortly after Henri Moser had given the collection to the Historisches Museum in Bern, or an error was made in Holstein’s book. Strange also that it is called a ‘Garsoe-katar’ as a Garsoe-katar looks like the upper katar shown in post #4 from Tirri’s book. It is the way the sidebars are made which makes it a Garsoe-katar, and the one from the ‘Moser collection’ does not even have sidebars.

If we say that the width of the grip is the same as on a ‘normal’ katar about 7.5 cm then the blade would be about 17.5 cm and the total length 22.5 cm. The way the blade looks, this would make it a very heavy katar, and no doubt difficult to used without sidebars and with only one crossbar.

RSWORD · 2nd April 2006, 02:50 PM

Yes, it is of a size that it could be a Katar and given the additional information provided by Jens(thanks for the other example) I think we have figured this one out. I had given thought to this thing being a katar but just couldn't figure out what the holes were for. When you place your hands on the bar the two bars fall next to your forearm rather nicely and I can see how a leather strap would make for a very secure and stable weapon.

not2sharp · 3rd April 2006, 06:57 AM

Just thinking out-of-the-box, could this thing be part of some sort of horse briddle? In a part of the world where elephants were sometimes trained to fight with swords; anything, is possible.

n2s

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd April 2006, 10:18 AM

I don’t think it is part of a headstall for a horse, I think it is a katar, crude but still a katar. I think Rick’s suggestion sounds as if it is the right one, that it is for a string of some kind, to steady the arm when stabbing.

Jim McDougall · 3rd April 2006, 02:19 PM

I too go along with Rick and Jens' assessment, that the eyelets in the arms of this weapon are likely to lash it to ones arms. I agree also with Jens that the appearance of one of these very similar in Mr. Tirri's book along with one of the Sind katars does not mean necessarily that it is regionally associated.

While these are crudely fashioned as mentioned and likely the work of local blacksmiths, they appear to be a rudimentary form of katar that seem to be intended for the close quarters slashing function of these weapons. I am glad that Jens included the very basic looking example that appeared in the Holstein book. One cannot resist wondering if these basic forms might have been a proto-katar form that remained in basic simple form in local regions while the well known larger and more complex forms developed independantly.

The inscribed marking are most interesting, any thoughts on the meaning or symbolism of these?

Best regards,
Jim

Mark · 3rd April 2006, 03:17 PM

Not an outrageous idea. However, I think the distance between the cross-bar and the tip of the blade make it unlikely. Given where the bar would fit into the horse's mouth (i.e., all the way back at the corners), the blade would not even protrude from the mouth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by not2sharp

Just thinking out-of-the-box, could this thing be part of some sort of horse briddle? In a part of the world where elephants were sometimes trained to fight with swords; anything, is possible.

n2s

Rick · 3rd April 2006, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

Not an outrageous idea. However, I think the distance between the cross-bar and the tip of the blade make it unlikely. Given where the bar would fit into the horse's mouth (i.e., all the way back at the corners), the blade would not even protrude from the mouth.

One thing for sure though ; it would put the horse in one hell of a bad mood .

Jim McDougall · 3rd April 2006, 03:39 PM

good thinking N2S!!

When studying Indian weaponry, one cannot help wondering in many cases how some items might have been used! Indian armourers were incredibly innovative in devising disguised, combination and unusual weapons. The thought on the elephant swords for example certainly would imply that some type of horse weapon could be equally possible.
Your suggestion was distinctly well placed, as Mark notes !!
All the best,
Jim

2nd April 2006, 03:37 AM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Odd piece-what is it? I have picked up a couple of unusual pieces that I have no clue as to what they are and would like some help from the broad range of knowledge this forum consists of. I don't know what to call this first odd piece. Is it a bayonet? Is it affixed to a pole for fighting? For gardening? It does have a strong ethnographic feel to it. The "blade" is triangular and has some simple line decorations. They look familiar to me but I am unable to put my finger on it. There is a cross bar near the blade and then at the end of the horizontal bars are holes. These horizontal bars end in a knob like shape. The angle of the holes are peculiar to me and I just can't picture how it would be mounted up. The "blade" is quite sharp. So, any thoughts on this piece? Attached Images

2nd April 2006, 03:42 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,271	IMO Certainly looks like a crude katar . Is it of a size to be so ? The eyes could be for binding it to the forearm with a cord .

2nd April 2006, 10:46 AM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,716	I have a picture in one of my books of a katar, at least as curious as the one shown. It is in P. Holstein’s book ‘Contribution a l’etude des Armes Orientales, vol. I. Plate XIII, no 19. Besides the way it looks, there is another strange thing about it. In the text to the figures it says, “Garsoe-katar (Bhoudj, Catch). Collection Henri Moser, actuellement au muse de Berne”. I have seen the Moser collection several times, but never seen the katar, so I contacted the curator of the department and asked about the katar, but he denied that a katar looking like that was in the Moser collection. So it seems as if it either disappeared shortly after Henri Moser had given the collection to the Historisches Museum in Bern, or an error was made in Holstein’s book. Strange also that it is called a ‘Garsoe-katar’ as a Garsoe-katar looks like the upper katar shown in post #4 from Tirri’s book. It is the way the sidebars are made which makes it a Garsoe-katar, and the one from the ‘Moser collection’ does not even have sidebars. If we say that the width of the grip is the same as on a ‘normal’ katar about 7.5 cm then the blade would be about 17.5 cm and the total length 22.5 cm. The way the blade looks, this would make it a very heavy katar, and no doubt difficult to used without sidebars and with only one crossbar. Attached Images

2nd April 2006, 07:57 AM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Looks like a katar to me as well. Maybe the experts on katar can tell us more.

2nd April 2006, 09:49 AM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,716	I doubt that you will find many of these, but you can see one in Tirri’s book ‘Islamic Weapons’ page 297, figure 218 (see below). Here is what he writes about it. “Jamadhar Nimcha is a short bladed Jamadhar (Katar). The short, three-to six-inch blade is usually proportionally wider.” The fact that he shows it together with a katar from Sind, does not mean that they are both from Sind. Not all smiths were weapon smiths, but they could still make weapons. Attached Images

2nd April 2006, 02:50 PM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Yes, it is of a size that it could be a Katar and given the additional information provided by Jens(thanks for the other example) I think we have figured this one out. I had given thought to this thing being a katar but just couldn't figure out what the holes were for. When you place your hands on the bar the two bars fall next to your forearm rather nicely and I can see how a leather strap would make for a very secure and stable weapon.

3rd April 2006, 06:57 AM	#7
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	Just thinking out-of-the-box, could this thing be part of some sort of horse briddle? In a part of the world where elephants were sometimes trained to fight with swords; anything, is possible. n2s

3rd April 2006, 10:18 AM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,716	I don’t think it is part of a headstall for a horse, I think it is a katar, crude but still a katar. I think Rick’s suggestion sounds as if it is the right one, that it is for a string of some kind, to steady the arm when stabbing.

3rd April 2006, 02:19 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,815	I too go along with Rick and Jens' assessment, that the eyelets in the arms of this weapon are likely to lash it to ones arms. I agree also with Jens that the appearance of one of these very similar in Mr. Tirri's book along with one of the Sind katars does not mean necessarily that it is regionally associated. While these are crudely fashioned as mentioned and likely the work of local blacksmiths, they appear to be a rudimentary form of katar that seem to be intended for the close quarters slashing function of these weapons. I am glad that Jens included the very basic looking example that appeared in the Holstein book. One cannot resist wondering if these basic forms might have been a proto-katar form that remained in basic simple form in local regions while the well known larger and more complex forms developed independantly. The inscribed marking are most interesting, any thoughts on the meaning or symbolism of these? Best regards, Jim

3rd April 2006, 03:39 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,815	good thinking N2S!! When studying Indian weaponry, one cannot help wondering in many cases how some items might have been used! Indian armourers were incredibly innovative in devising disguised, combination and unusual weapons. The thought on the elephant swords for example certainly would imply that some type of horse weapon could be equally possible. Your suggestion was distinctly well placed, as Mark notes !! All the best, Jim