eBay MORO KRIS WOOTZ??

[Mare Rosu]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT
Item is closed on eBay.
I am about to show my ignorance on this moro kris.
Was wootz ever used on the blades of a Kris?
I need help on this. Kris forum experts help me out on this.

[nechesh]

While this may indeed be a laminated blade, it is hardly wootz and i don't believe it is a Datu ceremonial piece either. Higher end tourist kris made in the late 20th century, most probably.
I have seen main beautifully laminated Moro Kris, but my understanding of wootz (which is, i admit, limited) is that it is something wholly different from the construction of the kris. I've never seen one with what i know of as wootz steel.

[Rick]

Highly unlikely that we will ever see an authentic antique (100yrs+) Kris made entirely from wootz .

Having said that I do wonder why not though what with the extensive trade throughout the area . Wootz cakes must have been available in the main trading ports .

Moro Pandays lacked knowledge of the forging process ?
They believed their steel was superior ?
The patterning wasn't important to them ? .........



I'll bet Mr. Pendray could make a beautiful contemporary kris blade from wootz ..............

[Mare Rosu]

mechesh;
whew! I thought I was mistaken on wootz blades. With my limited knowledge on Kris blades but I do know a little about wootz and did not think this was possible.

RICK;
You are right on Mr. Pendray I saw a picture of one he made with a jade hilt and boy was it nice. Will try and find it a get back and post it.

[Andrew]

I've not read about wootz "technology" getting as far as the Philippines, and the seller did qualify the comment with a parenthetical addition of "layered, laminated, watered, Damascus". As we've seen, the terms are often innacurately used interchangeably.

Moro weapons are not my thing, but my first thought when I saw the auction was "tourist". The fittings just have that bazaar look to them, designed to attract the eye, and the blade looks crude. For the life of me, I can't see anything I would describe as laminate construction, let alone wootz or watered steel.

[Federico]

The pattern on this blade was made with a process of battery acid etching, and soil burying. Ive gone through a number of touristy and fake weapons, on whcih this has been done. A shame, as many had good hardened blades, on the thin side, but functional enough. But just the detail the guys making these things think collectors are looking for.

As for wootz, Ive heard (now Im not big on metallurgy, and its been years since Ive read much), that once its heated above a certain temp the pattern is permanently lost. However, to forge at the lower temps in which to keep the pattern, one has a tight temp range, in which you can either go to cool and the blade becomes brittle and breaks during forging, or to hot and the pattern is lost. Given this tight range of temperature. I could easily see a Panday, not knowing exactly what kind of steel it is, and forging it as he's forged a hundred other kris, and losing the pattern with the hotter temp. Or on the flip side, thinking the tight temp range to achieve the pattern, not worth the effort when pattern welding is more understood. Or on the flip side of that, perhaps there was ceremonial/talismanic beliefs making one stay with traditional steels. Who knows. But on the flip side, when looking at trading patterns, why werent there more wootz Chinese blades, or wootz Dhas, etc... Two areas closer to India. Particularly for steel, Ive seen chinese pots, European stock, and local Malay/Indo sources cited in various manifests. While British would bring in Indian made cloth, I havent seen records of Indian made steel. How common was wootz in Britain?

[RSWORD]

I would guess that the forging of wootz was a tightly guarded secret. That knowledge was not exported to other regions so that is probably why you don't see wootz popping up too often in other mounts, unless, it is a trade blade that has already been forged. Then you do see wootz popping up in a variety of mounts.

[Rick]

I suspect that it was not very popular as a blade material Battara.
Aside from forging as Rick says I would think English standards required a much more flexible blade .

[Battara]

On the other hand, I suspect that once in a while a wootz piece could have been traded and used on a blade. Take this example of a gunong I have:

[Battara]

Now here is the close up of the blade (looks like wootz, doesn't it):

[Mick]

Sorry Battara

That's a folded blade, not wootz.

[Andrew]

I agree with Mick, Jose. That looks forge-folded. Is it polished like a Japanese blade, or etched like a keris?

Wow. What an interesting blade.

[Federico]

Are the white specs just dust in the scan, or is that actually in the steel?

[Ferguson]

A poor picture of a Tulwar with a wootz blade.
Steve

[ariel]

Yup: THIS is wootz.
There is a big difference between crystalline damascus (wootz) the beauty of which depends on a narrow range of impurities (wolfram, most likely) and heating/cooling temperatures and mechanical damascus that is constructed by combining different steels into a single blade and then polishing/etching the surface.
Wootz is a native Indian product. As such it was used by Indo-Persian bladesmiths as well as by the Persia proper masters who obtained raw materials from India.

Wootz ingots were rarely bought by the Caucasian and Ottoman bladesmiths and this is the reason why wootz is practically confined to India/Persia. I have never seen real wootz outside of that area.
Which kind of Damascus was superior? Mechanically it made very little difference for the average warrior; esthetically it depended on the personal taste; urban legends attributed incredible properties to either variety (such as " sliced through a nail" which is exactly what the Ginsu people are telling us about their kitchen knives) but the proof is lacking in most of the cases.
Ultimately, it is the swordsman that makes the difference, not the sword.

[Battara]

Hesitant to call my blade wootz, yet hesitant to call this pattern welded only. The white flecks are the scanner glass surface. It is not etched like the Javanese, yet not polished like the Japanese. In any case, it is the most heavily laminiated steel I have seen on a PI/Moro piece.

[RSWORD]

Jose

Having the privilege of handling that lovely gunong of yours, I can tell you it is not wootz. Rather, I believe it is a type of pattern welding, possibly 3 plate, not unlike Chinese sanmai.

[Battara]

Oh I agree. Having some wootz pieces from Turkey and Persia, Wootz is a little different. Though it does look a little wootzish. Many tulwars have incredible lamination, though not that same as wootz. The first picture is from a Kurdish jambiya I have (from Artzi ) with Persian wootz, the second is a Turkish jambiya (again from Artzi ) with Turkish wootz. As you can see, there are differences in the multiple lamination technique and wootz, though similar in some cases:

[Mare Rosu]

quote by RICK:
"I'll bet Mr. Pendray could make a beautiful contemporary kris blade from wootz .............. "



RICK;
I found this picture of the Kris that Al Pendray made out of his wootz.
Sorry for the image size but it is all I could find. I have been searching for it for a while. It has a jade handle that was made by someone other than
Mr. Pendray but do not know just who, for someone in Hawaii if I remember correctly, will keep on searching.

Rick

I found it! along with this writeup.
The price may not be allowed, if so Andrew or RICK remove it.

Sculpted Jade
and Wootz Kris
"An exquisite collaboration between Broadwell and Alfred Pendray. Features Pendray's Wootz damascus steel forged to shape on the 20" blade, including the raised center ridge. Exceptional forging! Jade handle with bronze fittings. All sculpting and carving, as well as all blade grinding and finishing, done by Broadwell. By far the most difficult and time consuming art project to date, this magnificent piece was commissioned as a showpiece for a private collection."

Similar Piece: $8000
Photos: Point Seven,
S Broadwell

[Andrew]

Thanks for posting that photo, Gene. No problem with the price, as it is not for sale, having been made for a private collection apparantly.

It's nice to know what some of the upper-end custom stuff sells for.

[Battara]

Although not traditional, that's one perdy piece.

[Rick]

Thanks Gene !
That's a very beautiful piece of work .
I sure would like to see some detail shots of this blade .

[Mare Rosu]

Rick
I did not find any closeups of the blade but I did find
Mr. David Broadwell
(David) the maker, along with Al Pendray of the Kris and I have asked him to join into this discussion of his Kris.
Now that the forum is back up and running (Thanks Dr. Lee!)
So all you forum folks please welcome David, when he signs in, and ask away about the kris.

[nechesh]

I would agree that this is indeed a pretty blade, but for $8000 i could buy myself one hell of a nice kris/keris.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by nechesh

I would agree that this is indeed a pretty blade, but for $8000 i could buy myself one hell of a nice kris/keris.

This begs the question , what constitutes a good eight thousand dollar keris ?

[Double Edge]

I appreciate the introduction, Gene. Yes, the wootz and jade kris is mine, made for a collector a few years ago. This was my second sword, the first being a boarding cutlass. Both swords were made as interpretive art pieces, not as historical reproductions.
As Gene said, this blade is made from Al Pendray's wootz. Al forged the blade to shape with all its hills and valleys, and forged in the raised center ridge. Al is unusually skilled with his hammer and I received a pretty clean billet. I fitted the kris with bronze trim and a British Columbian nephrite jade handle. The steel does have a pattern, but like most wootz it takes some tricks with a camera to get the pattern to show easily. Pattern welded is a breeze to photograph compared to wootz! Unfortunately I do not have any more pictures of this sword including close ups showing the pattern.
The man who commissioned this sword grew up in Indonesia and obviously likes the kris. He requested my style of sculpting and the wootz over a pattern welded "damascus" steel. That's why you see more of an Art Nouveau interpretation rather than a traditional look.
Gene had asked about etching the wootz. I used a diluted ferric chloride solution. It actually took three etchings to get it right, and I had to refinish and polish the blade each time. Wootz is etched by a quick wiping of the etchant followed by a rinse and oiling. I finally got my wife out in the yard with a garden hose and I would wipe on the etchant and she would hose down the blade. You can't let the ferric stay on the steel more than a few seconds or you loose the crystiline carbide structure that makes the pattern. Wootz takes a surface finish, rather than the topographical etch more commonly used on pattern welded steels.
If there are more questions about this or any other knife or sword I've made, ask away.

David

[Andrew]

Welcome to the forum, David! It's great to have another cutler posting here.

Your keris is beautiful, as are the other items on your website. In fact, I just spent a fair bit of time enjoying that site!

Hope to hear from you often.

[Battara]

David, your work is impressive. I bow in your presence.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Battara

David, your work is impressive. I bow in your presence.

And you, sir, are too modest.

(BTW, got your emails.)

[Mare Rosu]

"Gene had asked about etching the wootz. I used a diluted ferric chloride solution. It actually took three etchings to get it right, and I had to refinish and polish the blade each time. Wootz is etched by a quick wiping of the etchant followed by a rinse and oiling. I finally got my wife out in the yard with a garden hose and I would wipe on the etchant and she would hose down the blade. You can't let the ferric stay on the steel more than a few seconds or you loose the crystiline carbide structure that makes the pattern. Wootz takes a surface finish, rather than the topographical etch more commonly used on pattern welded steels."

DAVID
Question:
Did you polish the wootz after the last acid etching?, what did you use to do the polishing, and how? What was the dilution ratio of the Ferric Chloride? What oil, preservative did you use on the finished blade?
Now aren't you sorry for asking for more questions?
And one last question, Did you pay your wife for her help in the etching of the Kris?
WELCOME TO THE FORUM
Gene