I'd Love to Learn More About This N. Philippines Sword

CharlesS · 15th January 2018, 08:32 PM

I bought this because it was a bargain, and in such good shape. I recognized it as Filipino, but admittedly know nothing more about it. I am only recently starting to study N. Filipino blades.

So, with that, I'd appreciate any info on this sword.

Dimensions:
Overall length: 23.25in.
Blade length: 17in.
Blade's widest point: 1.75in.

Ian · 16th January 2018, 12:42 AM

Hi Charles:

I believe that the hilt is Ilokano work in that it is a horse hoof shape with a prominent groove below the "hoof." Ilokano hilts frequently have a notch or groove in this position, where the little finger rests comfortably. It is seen with many of their hilt styles, which are quite numerous and have been described here previously.

The brass (?) ferrule is also consistent with Ilokano work. The bulge in the grip adjacent to the ferrule is something I associate with Central Luzon/Pampanga (see, for example, many of the Apalit knives that have also been described here). Putting all that together, I think this was made in the area from Pampanga up to Pangasinan by local crafstmen who were either Ilokano or strongly influenced by Ilokano styles. The same area was responsible for many of the "Negrito" bolos, which can be used to define many of the Ilokano traits in knifemaking (as discussed here).

Blade forms are varied, with the tabak (aka the Negrito katana), dahong palay, and ginunting being quite common, as well as clipped blades (some resembling a Bowie knife). There are other styles as well, including heavy-bladed work knives of various forms, and even a "double-clipped" version. I've attached a picture of the latter profile on a large knife that measures 21.5 inches overall.

There are a lot of nice knives coming out of northern Luzon.

Ian.

CharlesS · 16th January 2018, 01:22 PM

Ian,

Any ideas about the date it was produced. It's in great condition but has seen some time. I don't think it is new.

Ian · 16th January 2018, 04:27 PM

Hi Charles,

Hard to say the age because it has been worked on a bit judging from the cleaned blade and the shiny leather sheath--all in good condition. I would say probably pre-WW II, but not as early as the revolutionary war. So first half of the 20th C. would be my guess.

The local name for this one would probably be sinan paddak based on the horse hoof hilt.

Ian.

CharlesS · 16th January 2018, 04:42 PM

As always, thanks, Ian.

ashkenaz · 18th January 2018, 07:10 PM

It seems that Luzon Bolos have too much western influences on their design, to the point that I think I can't deem it "Filipino" anymore in my opinion. But just Spanish short swords made by Filipinos.

Am I being heretical? Sorry about that.

xasterix · 20th February 2020, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

I bought this because it was a bargain, and in such good shape. I recognized it as Filipino, but admittedly know nothing more about it. I am only recently starting to study N. Filipino blades.

So, with that, I'd appreciate any info on this sword.

Dimensions:
Overall length: 23.25in.
Blade length: 17in.
Blade's widest point: 1.75in.

Sorry for necro-ing- but consistent to my quest to give due credit to Southern Luzon blades, I would like to assert that this is a Taal-made blade, as evidenced by the following:

1. Scabbard pattern
2. Horsehoof- type hilt consistent of other providenced Taal blades
3. Blade profile classified in Taal as 'kinampit' (not to be mistaken with the 'kinampit' profile of Panay, Visayas blades).

I'll provide samples to prove points 1 & 2.

MPM is a Taal maker who signed his blades, along with another maker known as JC. As you can clearly see from one of the pictures, MPM placed TAAL below his initials.

Rick · 20th February 2020, 06:22 PM

Here is a JC.

pbleed · 20th February 2020, 06:39 PM

I've come across blades with scabbards like this but never known how they were worn. Can you clarify that?
Peter

xasterix · 21st February 2020, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Here is a JC.

Rick, nice sample, looks really well-preserved!

pbleed, I have no idea right now- but I have blades with that kind of scabbard too, strange that I've never tried them on...will update you once I"ve worn them

Rafngard · 21st February 2020, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xasterix

pbleed, I have no idea right now- but I have blades with that kind of scabbard too, strange that I've never tried them on...will update you once I"ve worn them

I think I've seen a photo, maybe from Batangas?, of someone wearing a something like this with the "belt" diagonally across the chest, from one shoulder to the opposite hip, like a messenger bag. I can't find it right now but I think he was pictured with a pile of coconuts. This might explain the way the belt goes diagonally across the sheath.

I'll see if I can find it.

Thanks,
Leif

xasterix · 21st February 2020, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rafngard

I think I've seen a photo, maybe from Batangas?, of someone wearing a something like this with the "belt" diagonally across the chest, from one shoulder to the opposite hip, like a messenger bag. I can't find it right now but I think he was pictured with a pile of coconuts. This might explain the way the belt goes diagonally across the sheath.

I'll see if I can find it.

Thanks,
Leif

Hallo Leif, here. I'm wearing a modern Southern Luzon trad blade, from Laguna, that's a province near Batangas. Same scabbard tieup style

Ian · 21st February 2020, 12:29 PM

I posted an old stereo picture a while ago of coconut workers in Laguna Province. Their bolos are quite well depicted, and the sheaths have a simple arrangement for suspension, with the belt angled across the sheath. Those pictures are here.

xasterix · 21st February 2020, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

I posted an old stereo picture a while ago of coconut workers in Laguna Province. Their bolos are quite well depicted, and the sheaths have a simple arrangement for suspension, with the belt angled across the sheath. Those pictures are here.

Yup, thanks for the pic! Same way that I'm wearing it. It must be a Tagalog thing, that suspension type.

Rafngard · 21st February 2020, 01:02 PM

My memory must just be going. The price of getting older I suppose.

Beats the alternative though.

Awesome pics from both of you btw.

Thanks,
Leif

Rick · 22nd February 2020, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xasterix

Rick, nice sample, looks really well-preserved!

Xasterix, could you put a name to this blade pattern if you know it; and could you guess at the approximate age?

I gather that JC is not making bladed weapons now?
Thank you.

Battara · 22nd February 2020, 05:49 PM

Xasterix and Ian, I was thinking of that exact same steropicture when you mentioned the suspension.

Tagalog? - sure. Though I wonder if others did this as well.....

xasterix · 23rd February 2020, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Xasterix, could you put a name to this blade pattern if you know it; and could you guess at the approximate age?

I gather that JC is not making bladed weapons now?
Thank you.

Hi Rick, from a Taal/Batangas perspective, they called that 'kinampit' as per a 1917 reference. It's confusing because there's also a 'kinampit' blade profile in Panay, Visayas.

But from a modern Laguna perspective, they call that blade profile 'uhas tari.' The latter name (uhas tari) has different blade profiles depending on the area. But from what I've gathered, the profile originated from Bicol region.

Rick · 23rd February 2020, 05:48 AM

Thank you very much Xasterix.

xasterix · 23rd February 2020, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Thank you very much Xasterix.

I forgot to give an age estimate. Preww2 I think. 1930s, possibly earlier

15th January 2018, 08:32 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	I'd Love to Learn More About This N. Philippines Sword I bought this because it was a bargain, and in such good shape. I recognized it as Filipino, but admittedly know nothing more about it. I am only recently starting to study N. Filipino blades. So, with that, I'd appreciate any info on this sword. Dimensions: Overall length: 23.25in. Blade length: 17in. Blade's widest point: 1.75in. Attached Images

16th January 2018, 12:42 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Hi Charles: I believe that the hilt is Ilokano work in that it is a horse hoof shape with a prominent groove below the "hoof." Ilokano hilts frequently have a notch or groove in this position, where the little finger rests comfortably. It is seen with many of their hilt styles, which are quite numerous and have been described here previously. The brass (?) ferrule is also consistent with Ilokano work. The bulge in the grip adjacent to the ferrule is something I associate with Central Luzon/Pampanga (see, for example, many of the Apalit knives that have also been described here). Putting all that together, I think this was made in the area from Pampanga up to Pangasinan by local crafstmen who were either Ilokano or strongly influenced by Ilokano styles. The same area was responsible for many of the "Negrito" bolos, which can be used to define many of the Ilokano traits in knifemaking (as discussed here). Blade forms are varied, with the tabak (aka the Negrito katana), dahong palay, and ginunting being quite common, as well as clipped blades (some resembling a Bowie knife). There are other styles as well, including heavy-bladed work knives of various forms, and even a "double-clipped" version. I've attached a picture of the latter profile on a large knife that measures 21.5 inches overall. There are a lot of nice knives coming out of northern Luzon. Ian. Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 16th January 2018 at 12:54 AM.

16th January 2018, 04:27 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Hi Charles, Hard to say the age because it has been worked on a bit judging from the cleaned blade and the shiny leather sheath--all in good condition. I would say probably pre-WW II, but not as early as the revolutionary war. So first half of the 20th C. would be my guess. The local name for this one would probably be sinan paddak based on the horse hoof hilt. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 16th January 2018 at 04:40 PM.

18th January 2018, 07:10 PM	#6
ashkenaz Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 23	It seems that Luzon Bolos have too much western influences on their design, to the point that I think I can't deem it "Filipino" anymore in my opinion. But just Spanish short swords made by Filipinos. Am I being heretical? Sorry about that. Last edited by ashkenaz; 19th January 2018 at 08:37 AM.

20th February 2020, 06:22 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Here is a JC. Attached Images

16th January 2018, 01:22 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Ian, Any ideas about the date it was produced. It's in great condition but has seen some time. I don't think it is new.

16th January 2018, 04:42 PM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	As always, thanks, Ian.

20th February 2020, 06:39 PM	#9
pbleed Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 88	I've come across blades with scabbards like this but never known how they were worn. Can you clarify that? Peter

21st February 2020, 12:29 PM	#13
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	I posted an old stereo picture a while ago of coconut workers in Laguna Province. Their bolos are quite well depicted, and the sheaths have a simple arrangement for suspension, with the belt angled across the sheath. Those pictures are here.

21st February 2020, 01:02 PM	#15
Rafngard Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Minneapolis,MN Posts: 340	My memory must just be going. The price of getting older I suppose. Beats the alternative though. Awesome pics from both of you btw. Thanks, Leif

22nd February 2020, 05:49 PM	#17
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Xasterix and Ian, I was thinking of that exact same steropicture when you mentioned the suspension. Tagalog? - sure. Though I wonder if others did this as well.....

23rd February 2020, 05:48 AM	#19
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Thank you very much Xasterix.