What Am I - Firearms Curiosa?

Cathey · 8th October 2017, 07:11 AM

Hi Guys

The Pistol pictured belongs to a friend of mine who specialises in collecting Firearms Curiosa. He has asked me to post pictures of this particular item in the hope that some of you might be able to enlighten him as to what it actually is.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Jon MB · 8th October 2017, 11:46 AM

Hi,

Interesting.

Mid 19th C. Belgian Pin-fire 20 Shot revolver, incomplete?

Not my field though..

David R · 8th October 2017, 12:07 PM

It has to be a low pressure and short round, so I suggest made for a Flobert or gallery/saloon gun type round. I would also look at Velo-dog pistols.

fernando · 8th October 2017, 02:59 PM

Yes, Liege was 'specialized' in these multishot revolvers. 19th Century, Flobert (brim fire) system seems to be correct.
... I mean, only my opinion.
Look for the Liege eliptical proof mark somewhere on the barrel, or on the cilinder canelure flats or even in its admission (bak) side.

CutlassCollector · 8th October 2017, 08:35 PM

Interesting.
There does not seem to be a good way to hold it or take aim.
Could it be for use in the slaughterhouse? One hand holding the barrel right up against the animals head while the other works the trigger.

Jon MB · 8th October 2017, 08:45 PM

How about used as a trap?

fernando · 8th October 2017, 08:46 PM

I guess it is a revolver 'only' missing its wooden stock.

Cathey · 9th October 2017, 06:15 AM

Hi

To add to the confusion apparently this item is complete, nothing actually missing.

Cheers Cathey

Jon MB · 9th October 2017, 09:10 AM

Would the loop at the end of the trigger not also suggest a trap? Lack of sights, lack of grip, low powered rounds....or, as mentioned, a slaughter pistol, but the lack of grips counts against that theory.

Is the trigger pull reversed, i.e. Is the hammer induced to drop from the cocked position by the trigger action moving forward (as opposed to backwards)?

Is it double action?

Marcus den toom · 9th October 2017, 11:24 AM

These revolvers are sometimes offered on the marked, mostly Liege 19th century.
Quity often they have multiple barrels too.

Attached is my favourite revolver of this type

Fernando K · 9th October 2017, 01:01 PM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...Identificacion

fernando · 9th October 2017, 01:23 PM

This is the kind of things that, unless you are familiar with, having in it hands and be able to meddle with it, helps a lot. I would insist that it must be complemented by some kind of stock; once not a classic one, some extension to hold it or stick it on.
Isn't that a tension spring on the upper part of its 'grip', even with a pin to let it rotate ? Couldn't it be to fix such extension ? In this case its owner could help us, by trying to make it move.
I would agree that the trigger ring is there for some reason. I wouldn't go for the trap but something of more repeated action; i don't know ... some racing signal device ?
Surely single action. The hammer with a tiny rectangular portrusion to crack into the rim fire ammo. But again, its owner may confirm this.

P.S.
I meant double action.

.

fernando · 9th October 2017, 01:41 PM

Oh, cross posts with Fernando K. I now remember such thread. The example posted (not the drawing) is a center fire specimen ... and looks more refined.
However i wouldn'y buy so easily the theory of their use in landing boats. What caliber would they have ?
... And Cathey, what caliber does your friend's example thave ... a tiny velodog of circa 5 to 6 m/m ?

Jon MB · 9th October 2017, 01:41 PM

http://www.icollector.com/French-Mit...o-mo_i14159400

fernando · 9th October 2017, 01:54 PM

Good find Jon.
This one has a solid frame and loads by a side window, while Cathey's example breaks open for loading ... and seems to have a nuch smaller caliber, as mentioned, thus unable to function as a "mitrailleuse" (machine gun).
I still find hard to swallow the military purpose of the ones, even with a larger caliber, but ...

.

Jon MB · 9th October 2017, 02:07 PM

Agree, not sure I go with the 'French Customs boat gun' theme.

Richard G · 9th October 2017, 02:45 PM

Hello,
My guess, and it is only that, is that it might be some form of starting\signaling device. For example, to signal when a race competitor has passed a line so that someone else can start or stop a stopwatch or record a time. I can imagine this being useful in time trials where you cannot get all competitors to start at the same time such as dinghy racing in restricted waters or road racing on narrow lanes. All you would have to do do is tug a lanyard as a competitor goes by as the gun itself could be mounted on something else, like a starting boat or dais.
Regards
Richard

Cathey · 10th October 2017, 06:35 AM

Hi Guys

I have today created an email account for my friend Les who owns this strange firearm so he can get involved in this post as soon as his registration comes through.

He is not very IT savvy and only recently got access to a note book, but he is now looking forward to getting involved in this forum His user name should be Les-M when he get's online, and he has an extensive and impressive collection of Antique Firearms Curiosa.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Les-M · 13th October 2017, 06:22 AM

Hi guys

Thanks for all of your responses thus far.

The pistol is 45 calibre centre fire, takes a colt 45 round. Has no marks what so ever and is complete with nothing missing.

If you would like to see any other picture angles let me know.

Cheers Les

fernando · 13th October 2017, 05:36 PM

Welcome to the forum, Les

.
Now, with such caliber, my previous humble perspective ought to be reviewed. Without a point of reference, only judging by the images, i thought this was not such a sturdy gun. This being a 'forty fiver', one may then think it was made for more argumentative purposes. Despite some (plausible ?) doubts that this type of multishot pistols was to mount on boat rails, it remains highly potential that its function would require it to be fixed onto some base or extension, and its trigger able to be pulled with a string or a wire. In line with that, i would reiterate my fantasy that the slight protuberance on the grip back works as a fixation spring. Can you confirm that ... or is it just an irregularity of the material ?
It is good to have you around; further riddles may be on their way to our appreciation

.

Richard G · 13th October 2017, 07:09 PM

Well, like Fernando, I think .45 is a bit OTT for a signalling device. I also notice that none of the cylinders seem to have any backplate apart from the one being fired so friction only is keeping the cartridges in place. I would worry that following a few vigorous tugs of the lanyard a few of the remaining cartridges would be shaken out.
Regards
Richard

8th October 2017, 07:11 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	What Am I - Firearms Curiosa? Hi Guys The Pistol pictured belongs to a friend of mine who specialises in collecting Firearms Curiosa. He has asked me to post pictures of this particular item in the hope that some of you might be able to enlighten him as to what it actually is. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

8th October 2017, 08:45 PM	#6
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	How about used as a trap? Attached Images

9th October 2017, 06:15 AM	#8
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Actually its complete Hi To add to the confusion apparently this item is complete, nothing actually missing. Cheers Cathey

9th October 2017, 11:24 AM	#10
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	These revolvers are sometimes offered on the marked, mostly Liege 19th century. Quity often they have multiple barrels too. Attached is my favourite revolver of this type Attached Images

9th October 2017, 01:23 PM	#12
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	This is the kind of things that, unless you are familiar with, having in it hands and be able to meddle with it, helps a lot. I would insist that it must be complemented by some kind of stock; once not a classic one, some extension to hold it or stick it on. Isn't that a tension spring on the upper part of its 'grip', even with a pin to let it rotate ? Couldn't it be to fix such extension ? In this case its owner could help us, by trying to make it move. I would agree that the trigger ring is there for some reason. I wouldn't go for the trap but something of more repeated action; i don't know ... some racing signal device ? Surely single action. The hammer with a tiny rectangular portrusion to crack into the rim fire ammo. But again, its owner may confirm this. P.S. I meant double action. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 9th October 2017 at 01:43 PM.

8th October 2017, 11:46 AM	#2
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Hi, Interesting. Mid 19th C. Belgian Pin-fire 20 Shot revolver, incomplete? Not my field though..

8th October 2017, 12:07 PM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	It has to be a low pressure and short round, so I suggest made for a Flobert or gallery/saloon gun type round. I would also look at Velo-dog pistols.

8th October 2017, 02:59 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Yes, Liege was 'specialized' in these multishot revolvers. 19th Century, Flobert (brim fire) system seems to be correct. ... I mean, only my opinion. Look for the Liege eliptical proof mark somewhere on the barrel, or on the cilinder canelure flats or even in its admission (bak) side.

8th October 2017, 08:35 PM	#5
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Interesting. There does not seem to be a good way to hold it or take aim. Could it be for use in the slaughterhouse? One hand holding the barrel right up against the animals head while the other works the trigger.

8th October 2017, 08:46 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I guess it is a revolver 'only' missing its wooden stock.

9th October 2017, 09:10 AM	#9
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Would the loop at the end of the trigger not also suggest a trap? Lack of sights, lack of grip, low powered rounds....or, as mentioned, a slaughter pistol, but the lack of grips counts against that theory. Is the trigger pull reversed, i.e. Is the hammer induced to drop from the cocked position by the trigger action moving forward (as opposed to backwards)? Is it double action?

9th October 2017, 01:01 PM	#11
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...Identificacion

9th October 2017, 01:41 PM	#13
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Oh, cross posts with Fernando K. I now remember such thread. The example posted (not the drawing) is a center fire specimen ... and looks more refined. However i wouldn'y buy so easily the theory of their use in landing boats. What caliber would they have ? ... And Cathey, what caliber does your friend's example thave ... a tiny velodog of circa 5 to 6 m/m ?

9th October 2017, 01:54 PM	#15
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Good find Jon. This one has a solid frame and loads by a side window, while Cathey's example breaks open for loading ... and seems to have a nuch smaller caliber, as mentioned, thus unable to function as a "mitrailleuse" (machine gun). I still find hard to swallow the military purpose of the ones, even with a larger caliber, but ... . Attached Images

9th October 2017, 02:07 PM	#16
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Agree, not sure I go with the 'French Customs boat gun' theme.

9th October 2017, 02:45 PM	#17
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	Hello, My guess, and it is only that, is that it might be some form of starting\signaling device. For example, to signal when a race competitor has passed a line so that someone else can start or stop a stopwatch or record a time. I can imagine this being useful in time trials where you cannot get all competitors to start at the same time such as dinghy racing in restricted waters or road racing on narrow lanes. All you would have to do do is tug a lanyard as a competitor goes by as the gun itself could be mounted on something else, like a starting boat or dais. Regards Richard

10th October 2017, 06:35 AM	#18
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Watch this space Hi Guys I have today created an email account for my friend Les who owns this strange firearm so he can get involved in this post as soon as his registration comes through. He is not very IT savvy and only recently got access to a note book, but he is now looking forward to getting involved in this forum His user name should be Les-M when he get's online, and he has an extensive and impressive collection of Antique Firearms Curiosa. Cheers Cathey and Rex

13th October 2017, 06:22 AM	#19
Les-M Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Adelaide Australia Posts: 3	20 shot revolver Hi guys Thanks for all of your responses thus far. The pistol is 45 calibre centre fire, takes a colt 45 round. Has no marks what so ever and is complete with nothing missing. If you would like to see any other picture angles let me know. Cheers Les

13th October 2017, 05:36 PM	#20
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum, Les . Now, with such caliber, my previous humble perspective ought to be reviewed. Without a point of reference, only judging by the images, i thought this was not such a sturdy gun. This being a 'forty fiver', one may then think it was made for more argumentative purposes. Despite some (plausible ?) doubts that this type of multishot pistols was to mount on boat rails, it remains highly potential that its function would require it to be fixed onto some base or extension, and its trigger able to be pulled with a string or a wire. In line with that, i would reiterate my fantasy that the slight protuberance on the grip back works as a fixation spring. Can you confirm that ... or is it just an irregularity of the material ? It is good to have you around; further riddles may be on their way to our appreciation .

13th October 2017, 07:09 PM	#21
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	Well, like Fernando, I think .45 is a bit OTT for a signalling device. I also notice that none of the cylinders seem to have any backplate apart from the one being fired so friction only is keeping the cartridges in place. I would worry that following a few vigorous tugs of the lanyard a few of the remaining cartridges would be shaken out. Regards Richard