Need Help to Identify Sepuh (Old) / Kamardikan Java Keris

[Bejo]

I bought this keris because it had uncommon pamor visual. The pamor had a malela looks. (Hard to describe, will add the picture below). But, when I cleaned (warang) it again, the pamor's visual become quite normal now. There are a couple of things that confuse me to determine whether this keris is sepuh (old) or kamardikan.

In my opinion, things that indicate that this keris maybe old:
1. The form of the greneng. I think it is hard to find this kind of greneng in kamardikan keris. But, maybe I haven't seen enough samples to compare with mine.
2. There is some corossion in the wilah, like in the landhep part, in gonjo, and in the some part of the wilah that looks like it was formed due to long times. But, once again, kamardikan keris timeline is quite long, has been 70+ years now. Maybe in decades it can creates some corossion that similar to my keris.

And things that make me doubt to determine is sepuh:
1. There is some rough work in this keris. There is some scratches in both side of tikel alis dan pejetan.
2. The form of gonjo. Like in the picture attached, there is a uneven thin bulge on one edge of the gonjo.
3. There are scratches on gonjo and pesi joints. I have never seen that kind of form in other kerises.

Hope anyone is willing to share his opinion to me.

Thanks,


Best regards,

Joe

[David]

Hi Joe.
Photos would undoubtably help.

[Bejo]

Hello David,

I have attached the photos, but I dont know why they did not show up. Thank you for your information . Hope the photos will shop up now

Additional information :
Gayaman in the picture is the original warongko when I got this keris. I just replace the old gandar and pendok (banyumas bunton style use mamas) with new ones like in the picture. My mranggi just resharpened the edges and "gebeg ulang" (dont know the English words) the gayaman.

Thank you,

Best regards,

Joe

[Bejo]

More photos about :
1. The original warongko and still dirty keris.
2. The keris after the first warang with more malela looks like pamor.

[A. G. Maisey]

Gebeg>nggebeg>polish, burnish;

Ulang> ngulang> to do again.

In English:- restore & burnish

Old keris, Jogja.

[Bejo]

Thank you for your help

Best regards,

Joe

[Jean]

What a mess around the pesi hole!
Regards

[Bejo]

Originally Posted by Jean

What a mess around the pesi hole!
Regards

Hello Jean,

Yes, I agree with that. Do you have any idea the cause of that scratches?

Thank you,

Best regards,

Joe

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, the way in which the gonjo has been fixed is a bit untidy, but whoever has done it has probably done the best he could.

From the pics, it looks like the hole was too big, or the pesi too small, so a collar has been made to reduce hole diameter, and then that added collar has been tightened by punching with a drift. This sort of repair is an old one, before we had things like wonder adhesives. In my opinion it is an enhancement to the collectability of the keris, rather than something undesirable:- it tells the story of the keris.

[Bejo]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yeah, the way in which the gonjo has been fixed is a bit untidy, but whoever has done it has probably done the best he could.

From the pics, it looks like the hole was too big, or the pesi too small, so a collar has been made to reduce hole diameter, and then that added collar has been tightened by punching with a drift. This sort of repair is an old one, before we had things like wonder adhesives. In my opinion it is an enhancement to the collectability of the keris, rather than something undesirable:- it tells the story of the keris.

Thank you for your explanation. It enlightens me about this keris more.

Best regards,

Joe

[Gustav]

Joe, this one with some certainty could be the same maker or workshop. It's obviously unfinished.

With 38,5 a quite sturdy blade, my feeling ist East Java. It's surely not Magetan, yet resembles one in the hand, and Magetan had Yogya roots.

Pre- or after WWII? I don't know. Are there other workshops in East Java besides Magetan, where Keris making didn't stop after WWII? Where?

[A. G. Maisey]

The empus in Magetan were known as the Mageti line.

The Mageti line stared with Ki Guno Sasmito Utomo who supposedly was descended from Empu Supo, I think he was about the 13th or 14th in line of descent from Mpu Supo. Ki Guno was reputed to have made a keris for Pangeran Diponegoro.

After Ki Guno the second Empu Mageti was Imam Mustofa,; the third Empu Mageti was Imam Panani (or Panini?).

Then there was Empu Paku Rodji who died in 2011. Empu Paku Rodji was the fourth Empu Mageti and had been recognised as an empu since 1974.

To put things into context, Empu Supo lived in the time of legend, Majapahit, and the dates are very difficult to reconcile. Some believe that Empu Supo was not one man, but several.

Pangeran Diponegoro was born towards the end of the 18th century, died in the middle of the 19th century.

Empu Djeno Harumbrojo also claimed descent from Empu Supo.

The claimed lines of descent of empus are not necessarily to be understood as blood lines, but in many cases as spiritual lines of descent.

There was a hiatus in keris production in Jawa from around 1930 through to the revival that began with Dietrich Drescher encouraging production of a keris from the three sons of Empu Supowinangun:- Djeno Harumbrojo, Yosopangarso, and Genyodiharso. These men were working as ordinary smiths at the time they were contacted by Dietrich Drescher, but they remembered their father (Empu Supowinangun) had repaired keris.

After Empu Djeno began to make keris, Empu Paku Rodji, that is Empu Mageti IV, began to make keris also, and that probably happened in 1974, or shortly before 1974.

Prior to the Treaty of Giyanti (1755) and the division of Jawa, Magetan had been a territory that owed allegiance to Mataram, but when the Mataram state was split between Ngayogakarta and Surakarta, the Regency (Kabupaten) of Magetan became the responsibility of Ngayogyakarta, even though logically Magetan should have been associated with Surakarta, because of proximity and the siting of ancient monuments that were associated with Surakarta and with Magetan.

Because of this dual influence, keris style of the Mageti line is somewhere between Jogja and Solo, it seems to fall between the Mataram style associated with Ngayogyakarta and the Majapahit style associated with Surakarta.

I have never handled a keris that is attributed to the Mageti line of empus, I only know the work of Empu Paku Rodji by reputation and description, plus a few rather less than good photos. However, my feeling is that Gustav could well be correct in linking Bejo's keris with Magetan. If we look closely at Bejo's keris it has one very badly cut ron dha that is more like Surakarta than Jogja, but then the other ron dha is more like Jogja than Surakarta, and the blumbangan is not Surakarta, but Mataram, pawakan is closer to Surakarta, but the mixed ron dhas and the blumbangan distance it from Surakarta. When I first looked at this I thought maybe Godean--- which equates to Jogja influence.

If we look at Gustav's example we can see a couple of really badly cut Surakarta ron dhas, and the same method of fixing the pesi as was used in Bejo's keris.

Magetan is right on the border between Central Jawa and East Jawa, and it is closer to Solo than Jogja, yes, East Jawa, but the people there lean to Jawa Tengah, not Jawa Timur. Magetan had Mataram roots, rather than Ngayogyakarta roots, but after Giyanti it became Mancanegara of Ngayogyakarta.

I do not believe that these two keris are from the same maker, but I do feel that they are both productions of an Empi Mageti, which one I have no idea, but again, just a feeling, I think Gustav's example is possibly Empu Paku Rodji, based upon what I have heard.

Gustav, you say "Surely not Magetan", but I think it could be. What do you know about this keris you have posted images of Gustav?

EDIT:- THE TANGGUH THOUGHT PROCESS

It has occurred to me that some people who read this may find additional information that relates to the process of classifying a keris (tangguh),useful, and these two keris are in my opinion pretty good examples to illustrate the thought process.

Never forget:- "tangguh" is an opinion , others can have different opinions, and the same person can have different opinions at different times.

Bejo's keris displays a lot of Surakarta characteristics:- it is a large, strong keris, it has a full length ada-ada, the gonjo from the side seems to be very close to Surakarta, the kruwingan and especially the tikel alis are like Surakarta, there is a kusen (gusen), however, the greneng is uncontrolled it mixes ron dha types and neither of those types are well cut, in fact they are very poor, the blumbangan appears to be square, the overall standard of finish is poor. These negative features do not permit it to be classified as Surakarta.

The tangguh system was initiated by Surakarta nobles, thus any keris that is to be given a Surakarta classification must display a noble standard of work:- pride does not permit somebody from Surakarta who understands tangguh to admit that any Surakarta work could be less than excellent, tangguh is not just about aligning a set of characteristics, it is about other things as well, things like belief and honour. The most highly regarded tangguh classifications are those which are associated with eras or places that Javanese people believe hold an honourable value.

Bejo's keris has a square blumbangan and one ron dha is closer to a Mataram (Jogja) pattern than to a Surakarta pattern, combined with the negative features, this is sufficient to place Bejo's keris as Jogja. Jogja tangguh is pretty much a generic classification, within Jogja there are a number of sub-classifications such as HB (Hamengkubuwanaan, the best), through Koripan and Godean and a couple of others. One of those others is not Magetan, the reasons for this are buried in history, Magetan is on the border between Central Jawa and East Jawa, and historically probably aligned itself with Solo, but after Giyanti it became a territory that was the responsibility of Jogja, thus the confusion in style.

Now, if we look at the keris that Gustav has provided as an example, there are a lot of similarities to Bejo's keris, the most notable similarity is the way the gonjo is fixed, this sort of fixing method is normally used as a repair technique, but in these two keris it looks like it was done as original. Why? My guess is that the hole was not precision drilled, or punched and then filed to size, but it was rough punched and the collar used to take up the slack. Both keris must come from the same school.

The greneng, ron dha, tungkakan, kruwingan, ada-ada in Gustav's keris is of the same overall style as Surakarta, the tungkakan --- which can be difficult to cut --- is a neat fit, the greneng is the same style as Bejo's keris, but the two ron dha are very much towards Surakarta, not Jogja at all, however, they are incredibly badly cut. The blumbangan is square, pawakan is adequate for Surakarta. Gustav has said that this keris is unfinished, in my opinion, no, it is not. According to what I have been told, this is the standard of work that we can expect to see for Magetan. It is a perfectly functional keris, but it is most certainly no work of art.

So if we give Bejo's keris as "Jogja" --- a classification that I am now inclined to think borders on unsupportable, and we disallow Gustav's keris as Surakarta because of the quality of workmanship and blumbangan what are we left with?

It must be a classification that displays Central Javanese characteristics, that includes stylistic expression that is mixed and workmanship (garap) that is of very low quality. I am now inclined to believe that both these keris could be tangguh Magetan.

There are a lot of minor classifications like this --- Matesih, Kajoran, Godean, Madiun --- some people disallow them as proper tangguhs on the basis that the quality does not reflect what should be seen in a good keris, and there is no nobility attached to these places, however, the way tangguh is used right now, I personally think it is probably legitimate to use these other minor tangguhs.

Stylistically there is nothing of East Jawa in these keris, even though Magetan is now administratively a part of East Jawa, both these keris are stylistically Jawa Tengah.

[Gustav]

Alan, I bought that Keris about 3 years ago in Netherlands, no information came with it.

On Keris made by Empu Paku Rodji there is a small stupa-like carving at the end of Pesi, and, as I understand, that carving is tradition of Magetan. I don't know, if it was done on ALL kerisses, and my Keris is nothing somebody would have been proud to have made it. It's obviously unfinished, and that Greneng (and other Ricikan) does mean it wasn't made for selling it to another "Empu" to do the Garapan. Perhaps some deviation from a standard (speak mistake) was just to big.

Also, from the example I have seen, Tikel Alis on a Magetan Keris should generally be narrower.

Here is what Jasper/Mas Pirngadie wrote about Magetan in/shortly before 1930. It's not much, Empu Ki Guno and Mustofo are mentioned, Ki Guno as somebody, who did good Pamor forging, and subsequent downfall of Pamor forging (small quantity of lesser quality Pamor material used, irregular Pamor layers):

"In Magetan stond de sedert lang overleden empoe Kjai Goeno bekend als iemand, die krissen met veel pamor strepen wist te smeden, terwijl in diezelfde afdeeling in de dessa Semen zekere Moestopo woonde, die de pamor smeedkunst beoefende en het z.g pamor (vermoedelijk de weinig nikkelhoudende ijzersoorten) in een Chineesche toko kocht voor f 2.50 per katie. Zoodanig was de pamorsmeedkunst in Magetan verbasterd, dat de pamormotieven of uit slechts heel weinig strepen bestonden (door het gebruik van weinig nikkelhoudend ijzer in zeer kleine hoeveelheid), of toevallig ontstaan waren zonder methodische rangschikking van de grondstof."

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah Gustav, J&P obviously didn't think too much of the Magetan pamor.

I think that little stupa on the end of the pesi was mentioned in a magazine a few years back, wasn't it?

As I said, I can only go on what I've been told about tangguh Mageti, and those who told me, never mentioned this stupa feature. It might be like a lot of features on keris:- the good ones get something identifiable with the maker, the less than good ones do not get something that can positively ID the maker. This has always happened, and is still a standard practice with present day Solo makers.

In any case, whether this is Magetan or not, and in light of what you have just said, maybe its not, it is definitely from the same school as Bejo's keris, and it is definitely stylistically Jawa Tengah.

So what other options are there?

Not many. To my mind, the outstanding distinctive features are that gonjo fixing method + the low quality of workmanship. I reckon if we can ID where that gonjo fix was used as original, we might come close to giving a place or school of origin.

[Bejo]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Joe, this one with some certainty could be the same maker or workshop. It's obviously unfinished.

With 38,5 a quite sturdy blade, my feeling ist East Java. It's surely not Magetan, yet resembles one in the hand, and Magetan had Yogya roots.

Pre- or after WWII? I don't know. Are there other workshops in East Java besides Magetan, where Keris making didn't stop after WWII? Where?

Hello Gustav,

Thank you for the photos. Yes, both of the keris have some custom similarities. Maybe they came from the same besalen. My keris is only 36.5 cm. I have tried to look for information in books I have, but they don't give any information about Empu Keris in East Java after WW2. The closest timeline I read in book (Wangkingan Kebo Ijo) stated that in Pakubowono 9 time, many keris maker in east Java and Madura have stopped doing keris work.




Hello A. G. Maisey,

Thank you for your opinion. At first I thought this keris as a Surakarta Keris. But, after I read your opinion this keris, maybe Mageti is one of the option we have. Also, I have tried to contact the seller of my keris. He told me that the keris was bought from a village in Magetan. The previous owner got this keris from his parents. Although there is not 100% guarantee that this keris is created in Magetan, but he got the keris there.

Thank you,


Best regards,

Joe

[Johan van Zyl]

Bejo, I'm always intrigued when I view these beautiful photos the members post. It adds to our knowledge & insight. Thank you! And it looks like cardboard is not a bad background to lay the keris on.

I see what Alan & Gustav mean when they say the ron dhas are not identically cut. I had earlier not given the ron dhas a second look.

Interesting (to me, at least) is the stories behind the acquisition of the kerisses. If credible, they form the history of the keris in question. I always try to research the background of my acquisitions (mostly non-keris ) and find it whets the appetite!

I loved that ukiran when I first saw it. It looks so well-made.

A question (maybe a dumb one): were these pre- or post- WWII kerisses (like Bejo's) made with a steel core, or is the metal used of industrial manufacture with a satisfactory carbon content? I do not see a steel core.

[A. G. Maisey]

Both these keris have a core Johan, and it is very clear.

The easiest place to see it in both keris is in the wadidang, the wide curve at the blade base, the core is the narrow black border between the blade edge and the start of the pamor.

Joe, keris were made in Madura right through into the 1920's at least, I was given one with a broken blade that had been made in Madura, and bought in Malang not long before the Japanese occupation. It is a really terrible keris, but it is a keris

In Solo during the 1920's, and I believe through into the 1930's, the court "empu" was M.Ng. Wirasukadgo. I have not seen any record of him being created empu, but in 1923 his rank was Abdi Dalem Mantri Pandhe. I don't know for sure, but I do not believe that anybody followed him.

Keris and other weapon production was banned by the Japanese.

There was some spasmodic production during the 1950's and 1960's, Empu Suparman had made perhaps two keris before he began to make seriously at the end of the 1970's, and during this early period, he had repaired and altered many keris.

In Jogja a craftsman with the formal name of Bp. Prawirodihardjo produced keris and other related items for the keris trade. He used genuine good quality old keris and etc as his models. His family had been in this business for a number of generations. He was known in the keris trade but invisible outside the keris trade, his clients were dealers. He passed away a number of years ago and he was the last of his line.

Apart from Empu Suparman, and Bp. Prawirodihardjo I have been told that there were always a few ordinary smiths in Central Jawa who were able to produce a keris blade, I believe most of these people were to be found around Koripan and Godean, and in a village near Boyolali that I have forgotten the name of.

The revival of keris culture began with Dietrich Drescher and Djeno Harumbrojo in 1972, but it had never really died.

[Gustav]

Joe,

Also, I have tried to contact the seller of my keris. He told me that the keris was bought from a village in Magetan. The previous owner got this keris from his parents. Although there is not 100% guarantee that this keris is created in Magetan, but he got the keris there.

such a coincidence! And so well placed in time.

"Keris moves in mysterious ways."

All I can say, having handled a Keris by Paku Rodji, some time before I did see the article, is, that the Greneng of it wasn't at all similar to the quite distinctive one presented here, it had that small Stupa-like carving indeed, it didn't had the tightening around the Pesi and it's Garap was of good quality. It had also less Pamor indeed.

But, as I said, the feeling handling it was similar to the one I posted.

If there is a possibility for it to be a work from Magetan, I guess it would be done before the time of Empu Paku Rodji.

[Bejo]

Hello Johan,

Thank you for your comment,
I only try to make the photo the best as I can, so the other member can give more accurate opinion based on the photos. Yes, cardboard is one of the simple option we have to take a keris photo
When I take a photo of keris, usually I add small object under the blade, so the keris photo will not have much distortion.

Originally Posted by Gustav

"Keris moves in mysterious ways."

Hello Gustav,

I really agree with that statement. Happened to me sometimes. Just dont look for the mysteriousness, but be grateful when you feel it.

Just my guess, maybe my keris is done by the Panjak. Maybe he still in the process for perfection, so there is still some rough work in this keris.



Hello A. G. Maisey. Thank you for sharing information about Empu keris. It gives me better knowledge to know more about keris.


Thank you,

Best regards,

Joe

[A. G. Maisey]

You are most welcome Joe.

Yeah, I think you could be right about the possible maker. In fact, I think it is possible that more than a few of the lesser keris that we see were made by somebody associated with keris, rather than empus, or pandai keris, or even smiths.

In Solo during the 1980's, there was a m'ranggi who worked for me, in fact I knew him for 12 or 14 years, and he made a few keris. They were Solo pattern, and pretty good productions, he had a smith make the forging then he carved it. Also one of Pak Pauzan's panjaks (striker) used to make keris, he forged them in Pakpus' forge in his own time and took them home to carve.

[Johan van Zyl]

Alan, thank you for your kind initial reply to my query. You say the core is clearly visible. That, of course, is when you know what you are looking at, and you know what to look for. I am struggling to see the core, and the reason is that I don't know what to look for.

What is a core? In my limited knowledge, a core is a hard steel sheet inserted between the laminated pieces at a certain stage of the forging process. I understand by that, that the core metal is virtually covered (hidden from sight) by the pamor. Inspecting post #3, in which Bejo gave us good pics, I see with my untrained eye a refurbished blade (appearing so new as to have been made yesterday) with a laminated pattern that looks like islands of silver-colored metal lying in a sea of black metal. Of course, we have here an iron-pamor combination. But what does the pamor consist of? It would be "dark" iron and either nickel or white (phosphorus-rich) iron. It gives a sharp contrast. But in Bejo's blade I see ONLY two colors: very light and very dark. Where does the core steel lie? And what is the color of the core steel? Surely it should run all along the edge.

Alan, you say the core is the narrow black border between the blade edge and the start of the pamor. Well, then ALL the very dark metal I see = core material! Can that be? I thought the steel core was nearly fully imbedded between the pamor layers, and that only a very narrow strip can be seen at the very edge. This I fail to see in Bejo's pics. So it is clear from the above I am as confused as ever!

I'm making many statements in the above as if they are facts. However, there is a purpose to that. If I do not report what I think I see, no-one can help me see where my reasoning is faulty. Please could someone put me on the right track? Thank you!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Johan van Zyl

Please could someone put me on the right track? Thank you!

Hello Johan, at this picture you can see clearly the core. Hope this helps.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Johan, a keris blade is made by forge welding a piece of steel between two pieces of pamor material that has been made by forge welding iron and a contrasting material.

If the forging is well made and then well carved, the edge of the steel core projects beyond the pamor material around all the edges of the blade.

The diagram that Detlef has drawn shows the steel core where it has emerged from the pamor and now forms the edge of the blade.

The blade is in fact a laminated sandwich, pamor on the faces of the blade, steel core running through the centre of the blade and forming the cutting edges.

[Johan van Zyl]

Yes, Sajen, thank you for indicating it, and this is what I expect to see, and it is clear on the blade that Gustav has presented. And it is a nice illustration of what Alan is describing. But I have been referring to Bejo's blade all along, specifically the excellent 3rd picture from the top on Bejo's post #3. I'm looking for that same edge showing the steel, but I do not find it at all.

[Sajen]

Hello Johan,
use the picture from the uncleaned blade and make it bigger on your screen and you will see.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Hello Johan,
use the picture from the uncleaned blade and make it bigger on your screen and you will see. Post #4.

Regards,
Detlef

sorry, double post, that happens when you use a mobile phone.

[A. G. Maisey]

Johan, if you look at the deep fullers in the blade base, you will also see the core, in cutting the fullers (kruwingan) the maker has cut through the pamor material and exposed the core.

In post#3, third image down, on the left hand side of the blade you will see a very faint lighter line. This can indicate one of two things, the first is that the blade edge was forged down prior to the cold work being done, the second is that we can see a weld joint in the core. Impossible to know which from a photo, this would need examination under magnification.

All of the wider black areas that we can see on the blade are most probably blade core. There is a very, very faint possibility that the inside layer of iron in the pamor was left thicker than the outside layers, and what we can see is not blade core, but rather an attempt to economise on work time and fuel, but this is unlikely.

Think of a pamor blade as a ham on rye sandwich, with the ham sticking out from the bread; cut the bread too thin, and you'll likely see bits of the ham trough the bread.

There is a method of blade construction that was sometimes used in very old blades, Mataram and before, where steel core construction is not used. It is an older method economises on steel by using an overlapping double V construction, similar to that used in Viking swords, where a steel edge is welded into the solid blade core.

[Johan van Zyl]

Alan, I see the faint lighter line you describe. I had in my imagination expected the core strip to be more apparant. Thank you & Sajen for the trouble to point these out.