Elegant flintlock musket

[Marcus den toom]

Hello my fellow collectors, i am in a need of a knowledgable person on Suhl makers of the early 18th century.
I have this flintlock gun with two marks, one on the barrel and one inside the lock.

I do know the Suhler Hen.. the hearth shape is known from those regiosn too (famous families like the Kletts used them i believe?)
The rest is a mystery to me so i hope someone here knows who made this beautifull gun.

[fernando]

Beautiful lock, indeed Marcus. Good luck wth the marks ID .

[corrado26]

I think this "GB over a hen" on the inside of the lock is the mark of one of the Spangenberg familiy, all have been gunmakers at Suhl. Unfortunately there existed several G.Spangenbergs who have been living and working during the same time:

- Spangenberg, Georg Daniel, 1670-1752
- Spangenberg, Georg Daniel, 1703-1750
- Spangenberg, Georg Ludwig, 1718-1750
- Spangenberg, Gottfried, 1705-1763
- Spangenberg, Gottfried, 1738-1780

corrado26

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Nando and Corrado,

Thank you for the information on the Spangenberg Family, i did a quick search for them and it seems they did more of these quality guns trough the ages.
Attached are a few pictures of the inlaid barrel. It bears a well known picture of a lamb with banner signifying the son of God.

[Marcus den toom]

Corrado,

Could i bother you with a request? Could you photograph the pages with information on the Spangenberg family for me and post them here or send them to me?

I am rather intrigued by the barrel mark too, i can't really make out any form.

[corrado26]

Here come the wanted pages. But far more interesting and not mentionned by you is the monogram on top of the barrel. It is to be red "JP" and probably stands for JOHANN PHILIPP von WALDERDORFF, bishop of the bishopric of Trier in the years between 1756 to 1768.

This date helps very much in identifying the gunmaker: The only G.Spangenberg under the reign of this bishop has been GOTTFRIED SPANGENBERG, working at Suhl between 1739 and 1780
corrado26

[fernando]

Fantastic job, corrado .

[Marcus den toom]

Amazing work indeed Corrado, thank you very much.
If this is indeed the seal/mongram of Johann Phillipp it could be a gift to him for his appointment as Archbishop's in 1756 when he recieved his pallium. (source Wikipedia)

[corrado26]

May be it was a gift, but perhaps it could have been also an order by himself to have it made by G. Spangenberg
corrado26

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Corrado, i was looking again at the monogram and was wondering if reads JPL? There is also a cabinet made for him with the monogram JPC. both the extra C an L don t seem to be a third name of Johann Phillip. His father's name was Carl Lothar ... could it be possible the monograms used either name of his father too?

[corrado26]

Sorry, but I cannot see a "C", I see nothing than a J, a P and a L
corrado26

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Corrado,

The JPC is from a monogram on a Cabinet

https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/en/collection/BK-16676

It was made by Abraham Roetgen, the best furniture maker in Johann Philip his time.

Other texts concerning Johann Philipp are: "Johann Philipp von Walderdorff was more secular than his predecessors. He was a passionate hunter, loved the luxury, and presented it at his court. "

[corrado26]

The monogram of archbishop Johann Philipp von Walderdorff is undoutablyJPC = Johann Philipp Comes. My mistake, I overlooked the meaning of the "L" on the barrel of your gun.
The monogram on your flintlockgun "JPL" must belong to another owner. The only possible solution for this JPL is Johann Philipp Graf von Lamberg, bishop of the bishopric of Passau in Bavaria between 1689 and 1712. This means that your gun must be much older than said before. The maker thus must have been Georg Daniel Spangenberg, who was born in 1670 and died in 1752.
Sorry for the irritation
corrado26

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Corrado,

Thank you again for your lead towards Johann Philipp von Lamberg.

I was wondering if the orb like symbol could be that of the Globus Cruciger, the catholic symbol for a powerfull ruler both spiritually and earthly?
It is a variation on the ussual orb, missing a cross but with a flame on top (holy spirit?)

I ask because we know that Johann Philipp went to Warsaw in 1697 as imperial minister, where he was the king of Augsburg. In 1699 he received the office of an Imperial commissary.
So a man of high stature, making for an even more precise date of this gun if it can be connected to the orb.

[corrado26]

I do not know what this orb stands for (I am absolutely no fan of whatever religion). But:
Johann Philipp von Lamberg (he was never King of Augsburg, because at Augsburg there has never been a king!!) was, although Duke and Bishop, also a politician and diplomat. 1697 he went to Warschau/PL as an imperial ambassador, where he propelled the election of August, the Archduke of Saxony to king of Poland. In Juli 1700 he was promoted into the rank of a cardinal by pope Innozenz XII.

Perhaps this orb has something to do with his rank as cardinal?
corrado26

[rickystl]

Hi Marcus.

That is one beautiful gun !!!! While not in my area/knowledge of collecting, I just had to comment on what a wonderful piece and an interesting Thread trying to identify it. Great reading.

I do notice the lock lacks the arm connecting the pan to the frizzen. This is often associated with a pre-1760 style of lock. It would not surprise me if it is determined that this gun was made before this date. Maybe second quarter of the 18th Century. Wonderful workmanship. Congratulations.

Rick

[corrado26]

In case that bishop and cardinal Johann Philipp von Lamberg gave the order to make this gun, it must have been made between the years of 1689 and 1712. Pans with arms to the frizzen screw have still not been in use in These early years.
corrado26

[Marcus den toom]

After closer inspection of the monogram i wonder if it doesnt read J S L?
Or J S P L?
I attached better pictures of the monogram, i browsed high and low to find this monogram and the name it symolizes but sofar no succes.

[Marcus den toom]

Maybe even J F L?

[Marcus den toom]

Do you have a idea about the monogram Corrado (or anyone else of course)?
There does not seem to be a bishop with this monogram anywhere, while it must have been an important person?

[corrado26]

Hello Marcus

I made for you the drawing in three different colors to state that the monogramm reads clearly JPL, nothing else.
Regards
corrado26

[Pukka Bundook]

Marcus,

This is a beautiful sporting gun!
I would very much like to see the lock internals, plus a photo of the buttplate tang and the trigger-guard, plus the sideplate opposite the lock.

The shape of the lock and stocking up of this arm says Corrado has the date right...late 17th -early 18th C.

Again, a fabulous gun!

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Richard,

Here are the requested pictures

[Pukka Bundook]

Lovely, lovely pictures Marcus.

They all seem say late 17th c, or very early 18th.
For what it is worth, the very endearing caricature head on the buttplate and guard were only used in England from about 1665 to 1690, with a very rare exception used later. How this compares with Continental taste I do not know.
I have seen nothing like this caricature in George Shumway's "Jaeger" book, that has smoothbores as well as rifled arms.

Congratulations on such a fine piece!
Richard.

[Marcus den toom]

Something new and interesting has come up on my flintlock gun, it bears the monogram of Louis XIV the great. The portrait could be his too, only thing is, who does that other monogram on the barrel belong to?

[corrado26]

I don't think that these "monogramms" are real monogramms and that this caricature is the portrait of Louis XIV. Monogramms of King Louis le Grand must have a crown on top.
corrado26

[fernando]

I follow you, corrado !

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Lovely, lovely pictures Marcus.

They all seem say late 17th c, or very early 18th.
For what it is worth, the very endearing caricature head on the buttplate and guard were only used in England from about 1665 to 1690, with a very rare exception used later. How this compares with Continental taste I do not know.
I have seen nothing like this caricature in George Shumway's "Jaeger" book, that has smoothbores as well as rifled arms.

Congratulations on such a fine piece!
Richard.

Hi Marcus.

Much agree with Richard here. The lock internals show first rate construction. Suitable to the rest of the gun. Again, congratulations. A wonderful piece for a collection.

Rick