"Hippo ivory"

[Green]

I have seen quite a few keris on sale with the description of the hilt as "hippo ivory". These keris are mostly either Bugis or Malay types.

Can anyone here explain what this means? As far as I know Hippo is hippopotamus and they are only present in africa and completely absent in this region (Malay peninsula or sulawesi/Indonesia) . what we do have is rhino which is quite different from hippo.

So, how did the Bugis/Malay craftsmen got the hippo ivory in the old days?
could the sellers be mistaken a rhino with a hippo? are hippo teeth the same as rhino teeth or are there obvious difference that we can distinguish rhino ivory from hippo ivory?

hope to get clarification from members here. Thanks

[Rick]

I would expect it came to the area via Arab Traders.
I don't believe any ivory product comes from Rhino; just horn.
Hippo ivory often shows a line of tiny black dots at one place on the surface of the tooth.
There is also Dugong ivory that would have been available locally; but the animal has been extinct for quite some time.

[A. G. Maisey]

I don't think dugong are extinct Rick.

Whales tooth makes really fine hilts.

[Gavin Nugent]

Green,

Not only Arab traders but also Portuguese as can be seen in this link providing such ivories to the ruling family of Flores...note one image there of some very large hippo teeth.

I know in 1954, the island of Sumba was travelled to by Balinese who were commissioned by those in power to provide carved elephant tusks.

Flores may have been a large trading centre for such things but I am sure there is other references out there suggesting the same in Malaysia. I am sure the trade was far and wide throughout the entire island regions.

Gavin

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=45

[mariusgmioc]

As in the oppinions above, the Hippopotamus ivory could get there via different trading routes.

However, it is equally possible that the hilts are made of diferent kinds of ivory and were simply wrongly labeled.

For example since there is such a big negative image associated to elephant ivory, some traders may feel they make their goods more saleable by labeling them as Hippo ivory. Or, since marine ivory tends to command lower prices, they may mislabel their goods as Hippo ivory in the hope they can get a better price.

Just guesswork and speculation...

[David]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

For example since there is such a big negative image associated to elephant ivory, some traders may feel they make their goods more saleable by labeling them as Hippo ivory. Or, since marine ivory tends to command lower prices, they may mislabel their goods as Hippo ivory in the hope they can get a better price.

Marius, while it is often difficult to determine types of ivory from photographs alone there are distinct differences between the appearance of elephant and hippo ivories. I would tend to doubt traders would be able to pass one off for the other.
In regards to marine ivory, it has always been preferable to me for it's look and color. I was unaware that it commanded lower prices than either hippo of elephant ivory.

[rasdan]

To digress a bit about trade. I went to a talk regarding Ancient Kedah (around 600AD) last year. A researcher that was currently translating works by a Chinese Monk, I Tsing, told us that I Tsing mentioned in his journals, in Kedah port at that time he saw Roman (!) ships. Roman ships at currently Peninsular Malaya in 600AD. To me this is mind blowing. What we currently know today is just a very small part of what had happened. As Alan had mentioned in another thread recently, probably nowhere was remote to our ancestors.

[Rick]

Sperm whale teeth are sold all the time at my local auction house.
The only problem would be getting them out of the US to wherever.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by David

Marius, while it is often difficult to determine types of ivory from photographs alone there are distinct differences between the appearance of elephant and hippo ivories. I would tend to doubt traders would be able to pass one off for the other.
In regards to marine ivory, it has always been preferable to me for it's look and color. I was unaware that it commanded lower prices than either hippo of elephant ivory.

From all I know, there is a significant price difference between different types of ivory with elephant ivory being the most highly prized and marine ivory being the lowest prized. But then again, "marine ivory" is a generic term encompassing various types of ivory (narwhal, sperm whale, killer whale, etc), some more expensive than the others.

As far as I know, hippo ivory is very similar to elephant ivory and it can easily pass for it, unless you are really knowledgeable in the field. Moreover, some say it is superior in quality to the elephant ivory, thus it commands also rather high prices. Since I am by no means knowledgeable in this field, I base my oppinion more on what read and hear from friends, so this is nothing but a not so educated oppinion.

[kronckew]

hippo ivory comes mostly from their canine teeth and incisors, which are essentially huge tusks. they continue growing throughout the hippo's life, the lower canines wear against the uppers and keep them extremely sharp. more people are killed by them in africa than any other animal. you can see the flats where they wear, looks almost like someone cut them with a saw at an angle. they can open their mouths almost 180 degrees and a person fits nicely inside. tho herbivores they have been seen eating meat on occasion, usually cannibalistically (they don't eat people, just kill them). the males get very nasty during mating seasons, testosterone goes up to around 50 times normal (they're fairly grumpy even at normal levels).

rhino teeth are more normal herbivore teeth, more like a horses and unsuitable for making stuff. their horn is actually the item used by chinese idiots as 'medicine' -it's fused hair, chemically it's keratin, no different than your hair or finger nails and a lot cheaper if you want their 'medicinal' effects (none). makes dandy sword and dagger hilts for the arabs who still insist on spending small fortunes on equipping themselves with a real rhino horn grip on their mostly ceremonial sharp pointies., extinction is not on their minds. fibreglass or micarta would be better. or horn from other domesticated critters.

a set of hippo teeth: on a display rack & in place on a skull:

[rasdan]

For easier reference, two older threads regarding this issue. I think there's one thread in the old forum, but I couldn't find it.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ppo+ivory+hilt

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=ivory

[David]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

From all I know, there is a significant price difference between different types of ivory with elephant ivory being the most highly prized and marine ivory being the lowest prized. But then again, "marine ivory" is a generic term encompassing various types of ivory (narwhal, sperm whale, killer whale, etc), some more expensive than the others.

As far as I know, hippo ivory is very similar to elephant ivory and it can easily pass for it, unless you are really knowledgeable in the field. Moreover, some say it is superior in quality to the elephant ivory, thus it commands also rather high prices. Since I am by no means knowledgeable in this field, I base my oppinion more on what read and hear from friends, so this is nothing but a not so educated oppinion.

I dunno Marius, i can only speak from my own personal perspective. When i see a nice, well-worked antique ivory hilt on a keris i personally never base its worth on the type of ivory it is crafted from. How does one compare unique and individually crafted pieces? If you are speaking about the purchase of the raw material for these miniature works of art you may indeed indeed be on to something, but i base the worth of antique ivory hilts on their level of craft, age, intricacy of carving and the rarity of the form, not on whether the ivory is elephant, ivory or marine sourced.
As i stated, from photos on the internet hippo and elephant might pass for one another. In hand i would image that people who trade in ivory can indeed tell the difference. For one thing Schreger lines (cross-hatched diamond lines) seen in elephant ivory are unique to that type of ivory.
https://www.fws.gov/lab/ivory_natural.php

[David R]

Have I missed it, or did Walrus ivory get left out of the list?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by David

I dunno Marius, i can only speak from my own personal perspective. When i see a nice, well-worked antique ivory hilt on a keris i personally never base its worth on the type of ivory it is crafted from. How does one compare unique and individually crafted pieces? If you are speaking about the purchase of the raw material for these miniature works of art you may indeed indeed be on to something, but i base the worth of antique ivory hilts on their level of craft, age, intricacy of carving and the rarity of the form, not on whether the ivory is elephant, ivory or marine sourced.
As i stated, from photos on the internet hippo and elephant might pass for one another. In hand i would image that people who trade in ivory can indeed tell the difference. For one thing Schreger lines (cross-hatched diamond lines) seen in elephant ivory are unique to that type of ivory.
https://www.fws.gov/lab/ivory_natural.php

Yes, yes, totally agree, but I was referring solely to the raw, unworked ivory.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by David R

Have I missed it, or did Walrus ivory get left out of the list?

Can anyone here show a Walrus Keris handle?

[David]

Originally Posted by David R

Have I missed it, or did Walrus ivory get left out of the list?

Well David, i'm not sure we were making a list as the OP's question was specifically aimed at hippo ivory. However, i see no reason not to branch out in the discussion.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Rick

Can anyone here show a Walrus Keris handle?

Here you go Rick;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...8&postcount=59

Gavin

[BANDOOK]

IF ONE HAS HEARD OF CARLOS ESCOBAR ,AM SURE MANY HAVE READ ABOUT THE COLOMBIAN DRUG LORD,HE USED TO HAVE ONE OF THE BEST PRIVATE ZOOS IN COLOMBIA WITH ALL RARE AND EXOTIC SPECIES AND ALSO HIPPOS,WHEN TIMES GOT TOUGH MANY OF THE ANIMALS DIED OR SOLD OFF,BUT ANIMALS LIKE THE HIPPO FLOCK WERE REALESED IN A LOCAL RIVER AND TODAY THEIR POPULATION ARE IN THE FEW 100,S
SO AM SURE LOTS OF TUSKS CAN EVEN COME OUT FROM OTHER POPULATIONS OF HIPPOS OTHER THAN AFRICA,CHEERS

[kai]

Well, hippos certainly need to be preserved throughout their natural range (with many African populations already strongly declining).

However, I'm sure sooner or later the escapees in Colombia will be culled; I don't think they are beneficial for the local environment and are amongst the most dangerous animals for man...

REGARDS,
KAI "I MISS BARRY, TOO"