Is this a scimitar? From where? When?

[Neivalf99]

Hello,
I have had this sword for many years and have never been able to get an idea of its origins. I think it is a scimitar might be Italian? bought 20 years ago in southern France if it helps.
it is 76 cm long total
blade 62cm long
width roughly 4 to 3 cm
Thank you for any help

[rickystl]

Not being a blade expert, it looks like a European hunting sword. Possibly from the late 18th Century. It will be fun to see if the experts here think I'm right (?). Nice piece.

Rick

[Ian]

Neivalf99:

I think this one would get more attention over in the European Forum, so I'm redirecting it there.

Ian

[Jim McDougall]

I agree this is likely a hanger from late 18th century, and probably in the spectrum of these kinds of swords used by para military and auxiliary forces in Eastern Europe modeled after the notorious 'pandours' of Austria. The note toward hunting swords is well placed, as these forces were often charged with foraging as well as skirmishing for the regular army forces, and often used hangers of 'hirschfanger' type replete with stag horn grips.

While I cannot read the script on back of blade, the motif is consistent with the oriental exotica type motif popular through Europe in these times on blades. The clipped point on this blade is actually consistent with these captioned as 'pandour point' by Gerhardt Seifert ("Schwert Degen Sabel", 1962) in a typology chart of blade point forms.

The shellguard seems much aligned with cutlass like forms known in Spanish colonial and thereby sometimes Italian contexts which counter diffused in these times as well, so basically this is a unique example of these hanger type forms which is probably from these irregular units around late 18th c.

[Ian]

Neivalf99:

I took the liberty of rotating and adjusting the picture showing an inscription. The best I can make of the name is

G Dimûsco

That perhaps sounds Romanian or Albanian--not too far away from where you found it.

Ian

[Jim McDougall]

Ian, thank you for the assist on that! Between my Luddite computer skills and this Fisher-Price keyboard, I was stuck there !!!

Now having that name, I would note that it certainly does align with those nationalities, and that the convention of script signature of either maker or supplier of blade in late 18th c. was at this location typically on blade back.
The forces I mentioned, were indeed of pandour type in French armies as well as certain other European armies, and their forces were often of Balkan and East European nationality, many Hungarian.

This style of oriental/exotic motif on the blade was well known in these times in Nantes in France as 'Caissagnard', and often had a 'Turks head' or a turbaned figure.

[Oliver Pinchot]

The blade is as you conclude, Jim et al.
The hilt is a recent fabrication.

[Victrix]

When I google Dimusco I find that musco translated from Italian means 1) a small mouse whose fur smells of musk, or 2) moss? This is also used as surname in Italy. Hunting swords which I have seen often carry references to Pandours in the form of words ("Vivat Pandour") or related graphics (moon, star, figures, etc). The stag horn handle might suggest this is a hunting sword? On the other hand the width of the blade makes it more ferocious looking than other hirschfänger which I have seen. Could be a composite as suggested above?

[Neivalf99]

Wow what incredible info!
Thank you all so much, the inscription on the back is "Damasco"
with a crescent moon in front.
unfortunately the inscription on the other side of the blade is very worn.
Thanks again!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Neivalf99

... the inscription on the back is "Damasco"
with a crescent moon in front...

So, that's what it is, Neivalf99; precious info as well .

[Victrix]

Damasco is French/Spanish/Portuguese for Damascus.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Damasco is French/Spanish/Portuguese for Damascus.

Well done!!! This fits perfectly into the climate in which this blade is from, late 18th century, and likely in France as I described earlier probably to one of these auxiliary support units.
In this period there was great attention to quality in blades as well as to more ethereal imbuement, thus the talismanic and magical themes often inscribed in motif.
The 'damascus' term may well coincide with terms such as used in England with their 'warranted, never to fail' etc. on their blades. There were cases of 'cast steel' wording being used on some blades, and in Germany the word 'Eisenhauer' (= iron cutting) was used in instances. It has been suggested, or pointed out, that the well known use of 'Andrea Ferara' on Solingen blades, while believed to be an Italian smith, coincidentally means true (or good, 'Andrew' patron saint of Scotland) steel (=ferara, iron).

The crescent moon, as discussed in other recent threads, may allude to the espadero del rey's in Spain, as well as perhaps other 'magical' connotations.

As Oliver has astutely noted, the hilt, convincingly fabricated using stag horn, is incongruent with other examples of these swords I am aware of.

While we are referring to hirshfanger style hilts often employed in these swords, I have seen many of these with extremely heavy, and often recurved in yataghan form, blades. These are clearly for military use, not for simply hunting use, but the 'hunting' style in hilts was very fashionable in the times for court and dress accoutrement swords used by gentry and those of high station.

Regardless of the composite of the hilt, this blade is fascinating and well represents this exotic and intriguing period of most colorful military history.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Damasco is French/Spanish/Portuguese for Damascus.

Are you sure, Victrix ?
What i know is that, the French term is DAMAS.
Given that the inscription in this blade spine is hardly Portuguese, we have that the engraver used the Spanish word. One thesis would be that this engraving was a later addition, as the probability that such mark, more with such spelling, was used when and where this blade was forged, is a reduced one.

[thinreadline]

pity it is not musca rather than musco as this means 'fly' ( as in the insect ) in some romance languages ... and also 'sting' or 'bite' ... which would be very appropriate for a sword !

[Neivalf99]

here is a picture of the mark i found under the handle.
it is difficult to figure out, any ideas ?
i looked at the french ones late 1700's and they look like letters.
i see a squirell! if you rotate image.
Thank you again for all the info.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

Are you sure, Victrix ?
What i know is that, the French term is DAMAS.
Given that the inscription in this blade spine is hardly Portuguese, we have that the engraver used the Spanish word. One thesis would be that this engraving was a later addition, as the probability that such mark, more with such spelling, was used when and where this blade was forged, is a reduced one.

You are absolutely right, Fernando. It should have read Italian instead of French. The sword can hardly be from Damascus as it would then have the Arabic word for the city written on it. And the blade doesn't appear to be Damascus steel. So perhaps the maker wanted to impart that the sword purports to be in Damascus exotic "style"? Which is what I think Jim was informing us earlier.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Neivalf99

here is a picture of the mark i found under the handle.
it is difficult to figure out, any ideas ?
i looked at the french ones late 1700's and they look like letters.
i see a squirell! if you rotate image.
Thank you again for all the info.

Staffan Kinman's "European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks" mention Carl Eickhorn (1865-1976), Friedrich Eickhorn (1650-1680) and Peter Lobach (1580-1650) all from Solingen as using a squirrel mark.

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Staffan Kinman's "European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks" mention Carl Eickhorn (1865-1976), Friedrich Eickhorn (1650-1680) and Peter Lobach (1580-1650) all from Solingen as using a squirrel mark.

Yes indeed it was a visual representation of their family name , which of course means squirrel. But is the marking a squirrel .... ? Can you do a better image of it for us ?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Victrix

You are absolutely right, Fernando. It should have read Italian instead of French. The sword can hardly be from Damascus as it would then have the Arabic word for the city written on it. And the blade doesn't appear to be Damascus steel. So perhaps the maker wanted to impart that the sword purports to be in Damascus exotic "style"? Which is what I think Jim was informing us earlier.

Thank you Victrix!!
Indeed that was my impression, and good work in removing the hilt, which of course was as indicated, not original to this blade. These marks often on the tang are often not seen as few wish to dismantle the weapon and compromise its integrity as homogenous with that aspect.

When you mentioned squirrel, my first thoughts were the Eickhorns of course, but this animal does not seem to have the plumed tail (it may be gone from the cartouche). The book by Staffan Kinman is by the way, an outstanding reference which compiles data from the other well known compendiums very comprehensively.

Still there some other sources, need to look further. There is no doubt this is an 18th century blade, and as noted, a distinctive 'pandour' style point with the 'magic' decorative motif of the time.

[Neivalf99]

thanks for guiding me in a direction. any ideas on how to clean up the blade to see the mark better?
i compared the swords mark with eickorn squirrel and looks similiar but different. still researching and will post a better picture soon
but carl eickorn seems very far from late 18 century?
i have not found pictures of Friedrich Eickhorn (1650-1680)
either one seems of the mark time wise.
very interesting will look some more

[Neivalf99]

Here is what i see as a squirell, i could be wrong.
Internet research does not find the same pattern.
Any ideas on how i can clean up the rust on the sword?

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Neivalf99

Here is what i see as a squirell, i could be wrong.
Internet research does not find the same pattern.
Any ideas on how i can clean up the rust on the sword?

Could it be a dragon?? Does the creature hold a ball or a globe in its hands?? Not sure how to clean the rust. I think you can buy some solution for it but never tried it myself. You could possibly try to put a paper on top of it and rub a pencil over to see if the image adds anything new?

The Eickhorn symbols in my book are similar not identical and they changed at times. Also there may have been more generations Eickhorn in the business who are not mentioned there.